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Boat Forum / Building / May 2004epoxy thickener
I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town to West marine. So, I recalled some discussions about using talcum powder or wood flour for this purpose. First, I used some of my wifes powder till she found out and blew a gasket over it. I checked, powder is expensive, makes the boat smell funny too. Then, I recalled cornstarch is used as a thicken er for stews and soups and I had a little and it worked fairly well. When it ran out, I used regular flour, it does not work as well but is ok. I wonder if I could mix a bug killer like Sevin dust with it to help preserve the wood. Watch this space. It's gonna happen. One of these days, someone will nominate garden dirt as an epoxy filler. Hey, it's good for standing on and it's cheap. > I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica > epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > flour, it does not work as well but is ok. I wonder if I could mix a > bug killer like Sevin dust with it to help preserve the wood. I'd wash it through a fine mesh seive first. I don't see why you shouldn't use clean dirt. A nice sandy loam will be mostly silica. Clay is powdered rock. Talc is powdered rock. You can mix dirt with cement. Done that. And dirt doesn't contain perfume so the boat won't smell like the wife's face powder. > Watch this space. It's gonna happen. > One of these days, someone will nominate garden dirt as an epoxy filler. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> flour, it does not work as well but is ok. I wonder if I could mix a >> bug killer like Sevin dust with it to help preserve the wood. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned > Watch this space. It's gonna happen. > One of these days, someone will nominate garden dirt as an epoxy filler. > Hey, it's good for standing on and it's cheap. Makes good non-skid too. DSK > I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica > epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > flour, it does not work as well but is ok. I wonder if I could mix a > bug killer like Sevin dust with it to help preserve the wood. What filler to choose depends on what you want to achieve: -Colidica Silica for just making a thick but heavy putty. -Micro baloons for making light-weight and easy to sand putty. -Fibres to reinforce putty. -Pigments You could mix any of the abovementioned fillers to blend the properties of the putty. Fibres could be anything including sawdust. Some of the substances you mentioned are probably no good but for laughs. Stick to the ones I listed and live happy. Do experiements to find out how the different fillers work and how much to use for different applications.  Signature==================================================================== Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back" Piet Hein ==================================================================== > > I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica > > epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > to find out how the different fillers work and how much to use for > different applications. I appreciate all of this info. However, given the choice between doing something right and doing it weird, I am unable to stop myself and inevitably choose weird. Happened to have some copper dust from a previous experiment to make antifouling that could be applied underwater (yes, it worked) so I added some of this to the areas to be enclosed in the theory that it would prevent fungal rot. > I appreciate all of this info. However, given the choice between > doing something right and doing it weird, I am unable to stop myself > and inevitably choose weird. So you ask for advice to make sure what you want to do is is really weird? If you want to do weird things why bother about smell? > Happened to have some copper dust from a previous experiment to make > antifouling that could be applied underwater (yes, it worked) so I I have heard about a commercial Cu + epoxy antifouling so that's not too weird. Signature==================================================================== Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back" Piet Hein ==================================================================== > I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica > epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > flour, it does not work as well but is ok. I wonder if I could mix a > bug killer like Sevin dust with it to help preserve the wood. Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel that you've built. > Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel > that you've built. talc and flour are used as thickenres in resins. the problem with scented talc is the smell released when sanding. urea formaldehyde adehsive (plastic resin marine glue) is sold as a powder which includes either wheat or rye flour as a thickener. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned > > Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel > > that you've built. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (plastic resin marine glue) is sold as a powder which includes either > wheat or rye flour as a thickener. One good reason I didn t just go to the store and buy powder is that all I could find was scented. I can just imagine the inevitable question from my wife, "Who have you been sailing with?" Furthermore, it is fairly expensive. Sevin dust is fairly cheap and supposedly innocuous to ppl but I didnt like the idea. Even considered Ortho fire ant poison (remember, this is Florida so it makes sense) but it stinks too much. > > Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel > > that you've built. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (plastic resin marine glue) is sold as a powder which includes either > wheat or rye flour as a thickener. Every time I see these threads I just puke. Geeze guys, 6 bucks for a bag of aerosil enough to do three to four small boats, this thread is just rediculous...Scotty In my view, Scotty, the issue isn't the six bucks for a bag of commercial thickener. I'm still trying to figure out how the guy is going to wash the black carbon off the tiny beads used in toner. Let's see, open washing machine, pour in five pounds of toner, one cup of detergent, set wash cycle to "delicate", run the drain through a super-fine filter to catch the cleaned beads, and buy five dozen long-stemmed roses to try to placate wife when she sees the inside of the washing machine has turned black. > > > Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel > > > that you've built. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > bag of aerosil enough to do three to four small boats, this thread is > just rediculous...Scotty Brian, we are being trolled. > > I have been working on Minicup #2 but ran out of colloidal silica > > epoxy thickener and do not feel like driving all the way across town [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, remind me never to board a vessel > that you've built. > Brian, we are being trolled. Define "trolled". What you are reading may be non-conventional but that is how progress is made. Many of the advances in boat design and construction that have made their way into conventional big boat commercial shops came from the non-conventional small boat projects of amateurs. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned Speaking of non-conventional.................. I have used spay paint to color epoxy to match the pieces being glued. I just spayed into the mix and stirred it up until I got the desired color. This was done as a cosmetic 'fix' so the repair would not be visible and it is sandable without changing color. Not a marine application, by the way. Bill > > Brian, we are being trolled. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned Most progress is made by folks who have both an innovative idea and the engineering skills and material resources to test it in a rigorous way. Trolling includes asking fatuous questions like "Can i use dust bunnies instead of fiberglass?". > > Brian, we are being trolled. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned > Most progress is made by folks who have both an innovative idea and the > engineering skills and material resources to test it in a rigorous way. I prefer the kind that start "We were stranded on an isolated island with nothing but a box of paper clips and a forward hold full of dust bunnies" and end "Twenty years later and it's never given us a hint of trouble." I've been taking a bit of flack on the FreeNet for doubting the advisability of some of the enhancements they've been adding, which have subsequenlty lead to security problems on our home computers. My response to "engineers", software and otherwise, is the engineer standing up to his waist in floodwater seriously explaining how the dam could not possibly fail. > Trolling includes asking fatuous questions like "Can i use dust bunnies instead of > > fiberglass?". I don't think that's trolling. Trolling is where you post a newsgroup article for the sole purpose of seeing how many people respond. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned William Watt says: >My response >to "engineers", software and otherwise, is the engineer standing up to his >waist in floodwater seriously explaining how the dam could not possibly >fail. That was no engineer, that was a research scientist ;-P Real engineers are the ones who say "Oh, bvgger! THe dam's bust. Now, how do we fix that?" Steve I eagerly await the results of the dust bunny longevity test and have marked my 2024 calendar. > > Most progress is made by folks who have both an innovative idea and the > > engineering skills and material resources to test it in a rigorous way. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned 'Troll" or innovator not withstanding, 'Sevin', like just about ALL plant or garden bug/disease 'preventatives' is TOXIC. While supposedly of no great concern when applied AS it was DESIGNED to be used, make it airborne as a very fine particulate and THAT is another story !! When you mix a fine powder like Talc, etc. into epoxy {etc.}some of it becomes airborne. We've all experienced that 'little cloud' and thought nothing of it. Some of it definitely gets inhaled . . . that's why you can SMELL it. That's the first time. Secondly, when you are grinding and/or sanding down those lumps, runs, & fillets . . . you are getting a dose of a combination of particulates . . . the epoxy, the glass {a 'benign' substance when a solid}, and whatever the filler material is. Even if you use a mask . . . if you can smell it . . . guess what that THAT means !?! There's no reason why you can't 'experiment' with ANYTHING you want . . . anybody remember how 'Silly Putty' started? Just think FIRST about beyond the 'immediate' activity. Regards & Good Luck, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop {Who STILL has ALL his fingers, toes, hair, etc. HOWEVER, many years ago my Grandmother warned me about sitting on a cold, hard, marble floor. What she foretold didn't happen that day, or the next week, or even the next year. It happened THIS year !! } > > Brian, we are being trolled. SNIP >>Brian, we are being trolled. > > Define "trolled". What you are reading may be non-conventional but that is > how progress is made. Many of the advances in boat design and construction > that have made their way into conventional big boat commercial shops came > from the non-conventional small boat projects of amateurs. I understand what you're saying and I realize that nearly anything fibrous can be used as a thickner, but I think it's safe to say that building a boat with epoxy mixed with insecticide powder goes well beyond the definition of "non-conventional". Maybe the next time I need to do some fillets, I'll thicken the epoxy with Metamucil. It's got plenty of fiber and it should help to produce fillets that are quite "smooth" and "regular". ;-) >Maybe the next time I need to do some fillets, I'll thicken the epoxy >with Metamucil. It's got plenty of fiber and it should help to produce >fillets that are quite "smooth" and "regular". ;-) That would only work if the fillet were to be extruded. ;-> Steve "beyond the pale, probably..." >>Maybe the next time I need to do some fillets, I'll thicken the epoxy >>with Metamucil. It's got plenty of fiber and it should help to produce >>fillets that are quite "smooth" and "regular". ;-) > > That would only work if the fillet were to be extruded. ;-> I'm not familiar with Metamucil but suspect it may be one of those fine clay (kaolin) powders suspended in a flavoured water solution. If you boil off the water all you have left is clay which, like powdered talc, which would be less expensive to buy dry in the first place. And of course, water mustn't be mixed with epoxy or polyester resins. I'm not suggesting insecticide powder as a thickner for fillets. Some kind of additive for sheathing might be interesting but expoxy itself is supposed to be impermiable to air and water so it's probably a waste of money. If the expoxy wears off to the point air and water get at the wood the insecticide is gone then too. From what I've read I would use fibre for reinforicing for structural strength and powder to simply make the resin go further, or in the case of silica, for added abraision resistance. Both fibre and powder would make the resin more viscous if that's needed while curing. I've also read that that the need to sand the cured resin influences which powder to use. I usually collect wood "flour" for free (sandable fibre) and use that. I've used powdered talc with epoxy for non-marine repairs around the house. Laser toner sounds interesting except for the graphite coating. I don't know what graphite does to resins. Carbon fibre is sought after for combining with resins, but graphite? Imagine trying to clean up after sanding. Ugh. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned > Laser toner sounds interesting except for the graphite coating. I don't > know what graphite does to resins. Carbon fibre is sought after for > combining with resins, but graphite? Imagine trying to clean up after > sanding. Ugh. My understanding is that toner is not coated. Toner is micro fine, ground, black plastic that is melted and fused to the paper in the printer/copier. It's only real use with epoxy is as a tint. Graphite is sometimes used an a epoxy additive to produce a slippery, abrasion resistant surface on hulls. > My understanding is that toner is not coated. that was my original assumption but in an earlier article in this thread we were informed it is coated with graphite. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned >>My understanding is that toner is not coated. > > that was my original assumption but in an earlier article in this thread > we were informed it is coated with graphite. The pigment used in black toner is carbon black, not graphite. Here's a link to an MSDS with the details: http://www.biggestbook.com/MSDSFiles/bbmsds00739.pdf > Maybe the next time I need to do some fillets, I'll thicken the epoxy > with Metamucil. It's got plenty of fiber and it should help to produce > fillets that are quite "smooth" and "regular". ;-) Offhand, that sounds like kind of a shitty idea...... Anyway,sort of related to the topic,if I have to make a fillet of some kind here's how I do it.I stick the corner of a sandwich bag a few inches down into a regular soup can and drape the rest of the bag down the outside of the can.I mix up some fillet stuff and put it in the bag with a putty knife,twist the bag closed,snip off the corner and end up with a disposable bag of fillet material that looks like and is used exactly like the pastry apparatus that pastry people use to write on pastries with,the name of which I cannot think of at the moment,but you know what I mean,hopefully.To finish the fillet I choose an appropriate sized socket from my toolbox,clean of the grease,wax it up and drag it along at a low angle, ending up with a fillet flanked by two lines of excess material, which I let set-up enough to not be all gooey and to be easily taken off with a putty knife. (Unrelated to the topic, Google won't let me post this as "Re: epoxy thickener"unless it is a followup,which it is.If I remove the ":",everything's tits according to Mr. Google, but it starts a new thread). > [mega cut] "mindspring" in your e-mail makes sense.... :-) Signaturesteen - menzi.dk Ready for OpenOffice? --- |
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