Fiberglass hot tub
|
|
Thread rating:  |
aberr8te@yahoo.com - 22 Sep 2005 06:38 GMT Hi,
I know this is a bit off-topic for this group, but I'm not sure where else to ask it. I'm going to build a hot tub (more like a soaking tub), and I'd like to use fiberglass. I will first build a 2x4 frame, then (maybe) attach plywood to the inner part of the frame, then apply fiberglass cloth. But I'm trying to decide whether the plywood is needed for structural reasons, or just to give shape to the fiberglass.
Do I need to use something heavy-duty (ie 3/4" ply)? Or can I just use 1/4" ply (or even just a stretched-out bed sheet) and fiberglass over it? In the DIY car audio world, people sometimes use t-shirts to create a sort of mold. If the fiberglass can bear the weight of the water, I'd just assume not use any plywood. I fear that the heat and steam coming off the hot tub might cause delamination with regular plywood (and marine grade plywood is just too expensive for this project).
I'm open-minded to completely alternate building materials, but weight is a concern, so no concrete. Due to the location this is being installed, most store-bought tubs won't fit, so I can't simply buy a used tub. Thanks for the help, and sorry if this is a bit off-topic.
Shamus
Terry Spragg - 22 Sep 2005 13:25 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Shamus I would consider using chicken wire to form seat shapes, etc, and almost anything, even newspaper, plastic sheet, to help retain the juice of the first lay up layer. Fiberglass is plenty strong at 1/8 inch or more thickness, and boiling water won't hurt it. You will want to lay up several layers, then fill, smooth, and paint with more coloured resin. I did a dinghy that way, and it finished up looking like professional gel coat. Took about 20 thin coats brushed on. Self levelling paint, it dries glossy.
Lightly coarse sand between layers, and wash with acetone, if the last layer isn't tacky anymore. Use lots of disposable gloves.
Use a wheeled roller to press out air bubbles. Wash the tool in acetone as soon as you stop using it. You might want to get an ammo box, airtight, for an acetone tank. Use a barrier coat cream for your hands, arms, face. Ventilate well. Buy a cheap disposable painter's coverall. Polyglass will not stick to polyethelene.
Don't mould yourself into a corner you can't get out of. You will need to access the backside to plumb it, possibly a lift off topside decking, even if you only need to thread hoses and ends onto glue pads. I would do it in place, else it might not go up the stairs.
Terry K
Sal's Dad - 22 Sep 2005 16:16 GMT You CAN build it out of just fiberglass, but, depending on the shape and design details, this will be costlier and heavier than a composite. Glass is flimsy, and needs a backer (or core) and/or lots of integral framing.
You say weight is a concern, but the weight of the tub will be small compared with the weight of a full tub. There's probably no sense in doubling the price, to save, say, 25% of the weight (a common trade-off in boatbuilding).
Plywood comes in many varieties and qualities. Interior grades use a non-waterproof glue. I never knowingly use interior for ANYTHING, inside or out. Exterior grades use a waterproof glue. They are fine for most amateur boatbuilding. Marine grades are like exterior, but are manufactured with no voids, or small airspaces in the middle plies. Until you get into serious boatbuilding, this is not a concern. Definitely not a concern with a wood/glass hot tub - if the wood is consistently wet, you have bigger problems. Marine grade also tends to be made up of higher-grade veneers than lumberyard exterior.
I would suggest 3/4" exterior ply, (like CDX) screwed to 2x framing, 12" or so O.C. Fair and fill the interior (round the corners, maybe 1" OR 2" radius) then use the Vaitses technique http://tinyurl.com/8k9uj to sheath it with glass. Epoxy is 'better' than polyester for fiberglassing, but more expensive, and less familiar in the auto world.
Good luck! Sal's Dad
-- > Hi,
> I know this is a bit off-topic for this group, but I'm not sure where > else to ask it. I'm going to build a hot tub (more like a soaking tub), [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Shamus aberr8te@yahoo.com - 22 Sep 2005 19:55 GMT Hi,
Thanks for the replies. What grade of fiberglass would each of you recommend (with plywood, or without plywood)? I was planning on buying fiberglass cloth on eBay, and I've seen anywhere from 2oz to 45oz. The shipping is usually more than the bid price.
Terry,
When you say "Took about 20 thin coats brushed on.", do you mean 20 finish coats of resin? How many layers of actual fiberglass cloth do you recommend? Is it better to use a lighter grade glass, and use many coats, than to use 1 large 45oz layer?
Thanks for the input.
Terry Spragg - 28 Sep 2005 01:00 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Thanks for the input. My firt 8' dinghy job was formed over a saggy old wooden skiff. A coat of wax paper, cloth, 2 or 3 layers of mat alternated with light cloth, all done while green except for a break in the middle cured overnight, rough sanded and washed with acetone in the morning, followed by many coats of clear resin with like, 7 or 8 drops of yellow pigment per mix. Just kept on mixing a coat's worth in a cup, colour first, MEK next, paint it on, mix up, again, again,,, got the speed mixed right to keep it all tacky, flowed on with an old brush stiff and yucchy, squeegeelike, built up to about 1/16 thick self levelled gelcoat, in an open garage in summer humidity. Filletted inside corners with bog and a layer of cloth. Strong as a cast iron bathtub, stiff, with a little hogging between the centre and each end, hardly noticable. Planed at about 15 kt with me and a Suzuki 3.5 o/b on the flat. I steered "with my chin", hung over the front, leaning to steer. Great fun. Traded it away, wish I hadn't, now.
I don't think it matters much what weight cloth, it was all ad hoc, I had some scrap and bought some at the local race track f/g works. I watched them make apple barrels and learned to keep an airtight ammo box acetone bath to clean tools, especially a washer roller I made up from threaded rod and loose alternated 2 sizes washers with locked nuts to squeeze out air between glass lams.
The boat was about 1/4" thick or less and included a luan floor to hold down 1.5" styrofoam, 3 plywood seats sitting on wooden 2x2 clamps, screwed from the outside. The gunnels were old plywood strips, one in, one outside, screwed together and capped with a layer of glass. Shoulda been 2 or 3 layers. Coulda been nice mahogany, routed to fit over the rough edge. It got tore up dragging it over stones. I whittled knees for the top of the transom and flat stem, leaving holes for rope, forming handles screwed from the outside, and painted all inside with leftover beige latex. A plywood motor mount doubler for the transom incorperated into the stern thwart. Space under the seats for my "golf club" bilge pump clamped onto stiff plasic pipe 4 feet long, using a bag phone battery and flex hose discharge. Putting the discharge under the water outside the boat formed a syphon that meant the pump needed not work to actually lift the water, it only worked to move the water sideways, out of the boat. I used to go around the marina and pump out dingies after a rain until the battery went flat, just for the hell of it.
They never found out it was me.
Couple of hundred bucks, then, altogether.
Fun.
If you cut holes big enough to pass curved through hull "nozzels" with hosed clamped on and 5200 permanently glued to the inside, you could route hoses to a "T" manifold assembly and valves, with pump controller, or use the big nuts and clamp hoses on later if you have ample room behind. Make sure hair, etc can't get sucked into a recirculating drain and drown someone. Keep the pump intakes high on the sides, and grated to protect your biggest pekker too, or use a passive, nonsuction overflow collector, maybe perforated drain pipe, possibly under a decorative, removeable side deck grating. Add a tub / shower surround kit, maybe some mirror tiles, and Bob is your uncle. A timer on the pump would ensure eventual release of anyone snared too far from the power switch. People have been drowned, dare I say even worse, by recirculating spas.
I never heard of osmosis blister in fresh water, especially if the tub is not always full.
Terry K
Evan Gatehouse - 23 Sep 2005 06:01 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Shamus I would absolutely use vinylester or epoxy resins for a hot tub otherwise you are likely to get a very fast case of osmotic blisters. You will need some sort of framework for the glasswork, be it foam or wood.
Also make sure the final 2 inside layers are chopped strand mat with a heavy coat of resin for waterproofness.
You can use a mix of alternating layers of CSM & woven roving 18-24 oz
Evan Gatehouse
Doug Christie - 25 Sep 2005 19:23 GMT If you want to be creative with the shape of your hot tub I would suggest you use the foam materials, Diab and Core-Cell are two good options. All foam must be covered with glass and should tapered off where your jets and drains are. Anywhere you are going to perforate the tub should have no exposed foam. The vinyl ester resin subjected is a good option and I think needed to avoid blisters on the finish surface. However it is a very expensive product, to keep the cost down do all your laminations with a general grade poly resin and the two surface layers of mat with the vinyl product. (I would go three mat here). You should take a look at a few of the sites that are out there on manufacturing with glass, there are a number of way to make a break-away mould at a very low cost to produce a top of the line product.
Good Luck Doug Christie
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Shamus aberr8te@yahoo.com - 26 Sep 2005 01:19 GMT Hi,
Thanks again to all for the help. I plan on going to the local university library to learn a bit more about fiberglass before making my decision. Do you have any personal favorite books on the subject? The Vaitses book has already been mentioned, it is on my list.
I'd like something fairly basic, nothing that gets too in-depth about the chemistry, or about industrial-type methods. I'd like to learn about covering plywood with glass, making a 1-use mold, and also free-forming (doesn't have to all be the same book). Also I'd like to learn about the different properties of mats/cloths, different types of resins, gel coats, foams, etc. Thanks.
David Flew - 26 Sep 2005 10:11 GMT I don't think a university library will be much use . The sorts of things you need to know are exactly what Universities are NOT about.
I'd spend a bit more time on the web, looking at manufacturer's sites. I'd also do some careful cost estimates based on what you might end up paying for appropriate materials. Then double it for the inevitable learning curve and wastage costs for the first time one- off, add another 100% for fixing it sometime in the future ... and compare this with what a commercial product is worth. You might decide it's not something you want to do. Perhaps talk to a small commercial manufacturer, see if you can make a mould and have them produce from it ... David
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > learn about the different properties of mats/cloths, different types of > resins, gel coats, foams, etc. Thanks. Roger Derby - 26 Sep 2005 21:00 GMT Try to find "The Gougeon Brothers on Boatbuilding." These are the guys that developed and marketed West System epoxies and their newsletter has described uses including lots of applications in swimming pools, architectural stuff, etc. As you might suspect, the book describes the many boats they've built using all sorts of techniques. Well written with lots of pictures. Their techniques work well with System Three products, but don't tell them. http://www.westsystem.com/
System Three gives away "The Epoxy Book" on their web site. http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp Free if you register and download and print it yourself. It covers much of the same material in a lot fewer pages, but do read both. (Skip the first few paragraphs of The Epoxy Book if you really don't want to hear about the chemistry.)
Roger (I think S3 might have less blush than West, but then maybe I've just been lucky.) derbyrm@NOSPAMearthlinkNOSPAM.net http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > learn about the different properties of mats/cloths, different types of > resins, gel coats, foams, etc. Thanks. aberr8te@yahoo.com - 27 Sep 2005 22:07 GMT Hi,
Having read some of the references you folks directed me to, I think I've eliminated some options. I'm going to either use:
- exterior grade (ie CDX) or high density overlay (HDO) plywood, with a coat or two of quality epoxy, and make a 5'x7'x3' box.
I don't think I'd even glass it, just caulk the seams and put a liner in. One problem with this method is that if I used 4x8 sheets of plywood, the 5'x7' bottom would have to have a horizontal seam. I'm guessing I'd spend $150-250, plus the liner.
- cold-mold a tub with more comfortable contours and curves, using 3-5 layers of approx 1/8" fir (because I have an enormous free supply)
I've read in an article (not sure of the date) that cold-molding cost about $3.30 per pound, at 1 pound per square foot, including the cost of the wood. My tub would be about 107 sq ft. So by that person's calculation, it would cost just over $350 for the raw materials. I'm wondering how much of that cost was due to the wood, and how much for the epoxy. I have a good amount of free time, and would love an excuse to learn this method, so labor isn't an issue.
- I've heard that there was an article in Home Mechanix (somewhere around 1990, I haven't found it yet) that described plans for building a tub by fiberglassing over masonite (hardboard). Sounds interesting, but I'd like to find the article first. Masonite is very cheap, and that "supply of fir" I have includes 2x4's, which could be used for additional framing.
Thanks for the continuing help.
Roger Derby - 28 Sep 2005 00:01 GMT I wouldn't worry about the seam (5x7 vs 4x8). Scarfing isn't hard, but this would probably be the place to use the technique of just putting fiberglass tape on each side of the plywood along the joint. Your structure makes up for any lack of strength and you can fair in the lump easily.
I'd think CDX was the way to go. HDO is much nicer with fewer voids and more plies, but you don't need it and it's pricier. For boats, it takes bends with fewer lumps.
Too bad you didn't buy the lumber before Katrina hit.
Roger derbyrm@NOSPAMearthlinkNOSPAM.net http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
> I've eliminated some options. I'm going to either use: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks for the continuing help.
|
|
|