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Boat Forum / Building / November 2005Jet Ski overheating problem
The last time I rode my Jet Ski it gave me a problem with overheating. The cause is that there wasn't much of a stream of water running through it to cool it. The stream from the outlet hole was very inconsistent, and looked like it might be clogged by something. I ran it up on a beach too fast the day before, and was afraid that might cause a problem. If that's what is likely to have done it, and there is a way of cleaning out whatever may be causing a clog, can anyone tell me how to do it? > The last time I rode my Jet Ski it gave me a problem > with overheating. The cause is that there wasn't much [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have done it, and there is a way of cleaning out whatever > may be causing a clog, can anyone tell me how to do it? You answered your own question. You need to clean the beach sand out of the engine cooling passages. Get a maintenance manual for that model and it will clearly describe the cooling system. Follow the path of the cooling water in, disconnect the hoses, flush out the crud, reassemble. Yes. You need to take your jet ski to an acid dip facility and leave it in over night. Encourage your friends to do the same. "waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com" > Yes. You need to take your jet ski to an acid dip facility > and leave it in over night. Encourage your friends to do > the same. This is hateful, childish, and just plain mean spirited. There is NO place for this kind of behavior here, or anywhere else that may be connected with sailing, cruising, or water sports. A fellow mariner asked a legitimate question, to which you chose to respond in a snide and insulting way. Just because you don't like his choice of vessel, you think you have the right to be dismissive and rude. That is plain wrong. I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. - >>I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this >>way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. Oh my, I am so ashamed of myself. Lighten up, and get thee to the dip facility also. Jet ski operators have made their own bad reputations. >>>I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this >>>way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lighten up, and get thee to the dip facility also. Jet ski operators > have made their own bad reputations. You might enjoy Michael Leunig's poem "Ode to a jet ski person" "Jet-ski person, selfish fink May your silly jet-ski sink. May you hit a pile of rocks, Oh hoonish, summer coastal pox. Noisy smoking dickhead fool, On your loathsome leisure tool, Give us all a jolly lark And sink beside a hungry shark. Scream as in its fangs you go: Your last attention-seeking show. While on the beach we all join in With "three cheers for the dorsal fin!" >>You might enjoy Michael Leunig's poem "Ode to a jet ski person" Enjoy it, chuckle? That is pure genius. Thanks for sharing, perhaps it will encourage the meat head crowd to get a mirror but I doubt it. Three cheers for the dorsal fin indeed. About five years ago there was an incident where the driver of a high powered jet ski was struck in the head by a duck at about 70 mph (on a small lake, of course). The intrepid jet skiier did not survive, but everyone's sympathy was for the duck. I hate jet skis too. PDW > "waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com" > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - ''a fellow mariner'' ? Hoo hee, that's funny! SBV > A fellow mariner asked a legitimate question, to which you > chose to respond in a snide and insulting way. Just because Hoo hee yourself, I promise you that we pwc owners and enthusiasts are every bit as much boaters as you, probably more so. richforman ROTFLMAO .......STOP.you're killing me....... hee hooo > Hoo hee yourself, I promise you that we pwc owners and enthusiasts are > every bit > as much boaters as you, probably more so. > > richforman But it's true Scotty, I don't know why I'm letting you engage me in this stupid discussion, slow day at work I guess, but I can tell you, I've been riding pwc's full time for eight years now and know I'm as much of a boater as anyone else out there on the water, and so are my many very experienced, capable pwcing friends (many of whom have bigger boats as well)....with a lot of the same issues, responsibilities, interests, concerns, and passions, as anybody in a bigger boat. What I've noticed and must tell myself to keep in mind, is that I pretty much never get this kind of obnoxious, elitist, prejudiced, smug, superior anti-pwc attitude from any fellow boaters that I actually encounter out on the water, on the beaches, at the docks, at boating safety classes, etc.....only from usenet a.sholes......I always feel like a welcome member of the boating community just like anybody else on the water, except on boating newsgroups. Sure, sometimes they're surprised to see us at different places out there, like crossing over to Block Island from Montauk or cruising the Hudson River in our dry suits in 50-degree temperatures this last weekend, but pretty much always friendly and respectful. richforman Ok, I'll admit about 90% of the jet skiers I see are no problem. I even wave to some of them. It's that other 10% that zip around anchorage's and run in circles and ride boat wakes and generally are just so damn annoying that it's easy to just want to eliminate the whole bunch. but then, that wouldn't be fair,now, would it? SV > But it's true Scotty, I don't know why I'm letting you engage me in > this stupid discussion, slow day at work I guess, but I can tell you, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > richforman I'm absolutely convinced that about 10% of every boating "class" is idiots and fools. That includes fishermen, yachtsmen, cruisers, skiboats, rec boats, pontoons, and almost anything else that you can think of. Don't believe me? Spend a couple of hours at your local ramp and just watch the selfish, assinine, arrogant, ignorant insanity displayed by the diverse cross-section of enthusiasts. It's amazing. I've lived on a lake for many, many years and there's no protected class of (non-professinal, civilian) "smart boaters". Giz > Ok, I'll admit about 90% of the jet skiers I see are no problem. > I even wave to some of them. It's that other 10% that zip around [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> >> richforman > Ok, I'll admit about 90% of the jet skiers I see are no problem. > I even wave to some of them. It's that other 10% that zip around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > SV Probably about comparable to the corresponding percentage for recreational boaters in general, wouln't you agree? Thanks Scotty. Oh and thanks on behalf of all of us for those friendly waves... richforman > > But it's true Scotty, I don't know why I'm letting you engage > me in [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > richforman This guy does not ask real questions. > "waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - The poster ... the guy with the hot jetski ... cross posted to inappropriate groups ... e.g. rec.boats.building ??? and that makes the poster a bit of a complete bozo > This is hateful, childish, and just plain mean spirited. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this > way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. >"waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this >way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. A person doesn't need an open mind to participate in ngs. I have a Jet Ski. And a houseboat. And a runabout. And 4 kayaks. They all have their different uses...their good and bad points. I've gotten pissed of at a lot of pwc riders. And at houseboats, cruisers for sure, sailboats, and certainly at runabouts. They all can be fun, or dangerous. Their operators can be courteous or inconsiderate. People who just hate pwcs don't seem like the type who would be thoughtful or considerate, regardless of what type boat they're operating. 5. Nomen Nescio Oct 23, 7:20 pm show options Newsgroups: alt.sport.jet-ski, rec.boats.building, rec.boats.cruising From: Nomen Nescio <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> - "waynebatrecdotbo...@hotmail.com" > Yes. You need to take your jet ski to an acid dip facility > and leave it in over night. Encourage your friends to do > the same. >This is hateful, childish, and just plain mean spirited. >There is NO place for this kind of behavior here, or anywhere >else that may be connected with sailing, cruising, or water sports. >A fellow mariner asked a legitimate question, to which you chose to respond in a snide >and insulting way. Just because you don't like his choice of vessel, you think you have >the right to be dismissive and rude. That is plain wrong. >I'm appalled and ashamed (for you) that you would act this >way. You are the kind that gives the rest of us a bad reputation. Yeah, another statistic of a "hate crime" Most of the elitist geniuses here don't know how to care for their own boats. They're too busy wishing their wives would let them have a jetski. The last two posts shows you the quality of advice here. You'll have better luck at rec.sport.jetski. John I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast. Too many times I've been in a tight situation on a sail boat when these dick heads think it's funny to ride doughnuts around us. Not to mention the times we've been at anchor and they scream around our boat just to get a rise out of our little dog who hates the noise they make. I'm with the dog, I don't like the noise either! Lady Sailor < Not to mention the times we've < been at anchor and they scream around our boat just to get a rise out < of our little dog who hates the noise they make. Are you really that self centered to think that other people really give a sh.t about your dog's reaction? You can't be serious. You miss the point, John. It's not about the dog... it's about a few (maybe more than a few) jet ski operators who delight in harrasing a woman and her dog. Generally the people on jet skis are kids and pretty mindless. The high pitched noise made by some of these things probably cause the dog a lot of pain and it reacts by barking at the things that are hurting it. Also, you may be surprised to know that dogs and boating are a pretty nice combination. A lot of boaters take their dogs along for the companionship and because a lot of dogs really enjoy a boat ride and a day out with the owner. Speaking for myself, I like most dogs a lot more than I like most jet ski operators. The dogs seem to be smarter and better behaved. Butch >< Not to mention the times we've > < been at anchor and they scream around our boat just to get a rise out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you really that self centered to think that other people really > give a sh.t about your dog's reaction? You can't be serious. > You miss the point, John. It's not about the dog... it's about a few > (maybe more than a few) jet ski operators who delight in harrasing a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Speaking for myself, I like most dogs a lot more than I like most jet > ski operators. The dogs seem to be smarter and better behaved. Speaking as a boater, with dogs, who also owns three PWC... I agree.  Signaturefrosty < Are you really that self centered to think that other people really < give a sh.t about your dog's reaction? You can't be serious. Your post is classic John. A perfect window into the mind of a jet ski operator. Barb www.sailinglinks.com >< Not to mention the times we've >< been at anchor and they scream around our boat just to get a rise out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Are you really that self centered to think that other people really >give a sh.t about your dog's reaction? You can't be serious. I've seen similar in this area. Some bozo on a jetski doing donuts around a boat at anchor with a dog barking its head off. There was no other reason for the guy doing it. I'm sure he thought it was equally funny when the local sherrif gave him a ticket for going over the 5mph posted speed limit. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast. Too many times I've >been in a tight situation on a sail boat when these dick heads think [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Lady Sailor Sometimes sailboats are a pain in the a.s too. I've gotten chapped at more than one of them in my houseboat. I'm willing to bet you've been cussed a few times yourself. No d, I can't say that we've ever been cussed at. But then, we don't go out of our way to piss people off by buzzing around them, cutting them off and racing through marina's causing large wakes. Barb www.sailinglinks.com On behalf of the pwc community, let me say that obviously anyone who does those things is idiotic, irresponsible and probably a newbie or a kid. But no one I ride with, and I ride with lots of fellow pwc touring/cruising enthusiasts, would do anything like that once they have maybe a season's experience under their belt to figure out what's going on (We usually learn our lessons early on by getting ticketed by the marine law-enforcement agents who usually seem to perform more enforcement with pwc's than with other boats acting just as stupidly and dangerously....and actually it's good because after you've been pulled over or ticketed once or twice for a no wake zone or not having the required safety equipment on board, you learn the rules pretty fast!....'Course when I started riding eight years ago, that was before they had the mandatory education/certification requirement that NYS now has for all pwc operators, so I would guess that newbies are more educated and prepared from the get-go now....I know accident and injury statistics have gone down). Anyway, it is unfair stereotyping to try to paint the entire pwc world as exhibiting that kind of behavior. I guarantee you if you saw me or any of my riding friends on the water you wouldn't see anything like the kind of behavior you mention. richforman You make some good points Rich. To be fair I should mention that we left the US three years ago and have been sailing the Western Coast of Mexico since. Here the rules and policing of pwc's is far different, read non existent. It's good to know that things are shaping up north of us should we ever sail the US again. Barb www.sailinglinks.com > On behalf of the pwc community, let me say that obviously anyone who > does those things [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > richforman I second that emotion. Most PWCers I see seem intent on getting to their favorite fishing spot, and then home in time to cook their catch for supper. No bother, really. It's usually the kids... Wannabe hells rangers waterbikers, it seems. Terry K Some Bud Yelse wrote: I ran over gravel in my seadoo. How can I unstick my impellor? Some Co-Troller Yelse wrote: Flush it with gas, use zippo to see inside if it's unclogged. . .(Paraphrased) Other insults redacted -TK . A real Seadoo Bunny wrote: > No d, I can't say that we've ever been cussed at. But then, we don't > go out of our way to piss people off by buzzing around them, cutting > them off and racing through marina's causing large wakes. > > Barb > www.sailinglinks.com You can jump my wake, if chasing sailors is your crush. Once or twice, anyway. Maybe I could give you a tow, if you want to come aboard for a coffee. One of my best feelings was when we towed under sail a family of 5 in a small speedboat at near hull speed. As it happened, they were flooded, not out of gas. After half an hour of coaching, the skipper began to understand starting a hot engine with a manual choke. Who said sailors don't need to be gearheads? At least they were all wearing lifejackets. Foreigners, visiting a wedding. A rented motorboat excursion thrill, worried grandma and all. They got to the wedding on time. Didj'a ever climb the rigging from from one boat to another? I have a ladder on my transom that can be used for docking my dinghy. It makes it easy to get back and forth, even under way, with hand lines. Pulling a rope on a seadoo bow shouldn't be any more difficult than pulling my old dinghy close up behind, even at sailing speed. Could you climb from your cockpit to the bow of your sea scooter if it was tied to my stern ladder articulation whilst under sail? Would a flooded flexy framed inflatable sailcloth bumkin shape make a seadoo easier to tow at sailing speed? What a plan for a fast dinghy! An inflatable "trailer" for a seadoo might make it a winner as a sailor's second boat. Fun? It could also tow, even push a becalmed pure sailboat back to it's mooring. Strangely, it seems the most expensive part of a sailboat is an engine. Why can not an engine for a sail boat cost less than for an obnoxius sounding wave jumper? Perhaps an inflatable sailboat with a built in dock for a seadoo, al la Captain Nemo's submarine dinghy? How about a submersible swath effect sailboat with no need for a weighty keel? A seperate steerable tip on a keel should enable a hydrodynamic steerable keel effect, keeping the keel erect in the water even under press of sail. Would the hydrodynamic drag be less than that of a heavy weight keel supporting hull? Why could not a submarine be towed by a kite hooked to it's periscope? Add a n inflatable trampoline and a picknic basket and you have a floating airbed mattress and tent you could portage, except for the heavy engine. No mast, even. Maybe 10 HP would do? The reason sailing is getting so expensive is a marketing ploy to pare down the number of adventurous people on the water, while extracting the most money from the rich aspiring boat snobs. They would pose less of a crowd control problem if their propellors did not hurt manatees. You could even have a bicycle based excercise machine to recharge the Hall effect brake regenerator rotor motor batteries for the 3 hp impellor, if the inflatable solar cells weren't getting enough sun, and there wasn't enough wind to sail, and if you couldn't afford or find gas or diesel. Or, you could pay to join an excercise club? How much power do you really need to tow a skiier, even as slowly as possible? Don't I remember a ski tow drone with remote control tow cables being in the news 20 years ago with a 20 horse motor? Remember the pogo foil water scooter? They have international races, now, like a scooter steeplchase. Is this an overheating thread? Reverse flush your impellor! turn it a little in reverse by hand. Take the spark plugs out to make it easy to turn. Get a firefighting hose fixture on the outlet of your seadoo, volunteer as a helicopter smoke jumper into a lake or river near a forest fire or village in need of water. Anchor just offshore to fight the fire and tie the boatette to a tree. Tow a Zeanon water filter in a flexy bag. No, I'm not the Terry Spragg who invented the water bag for towing glaciers to Saudi Arabia. Somebody called me once, looking for him. Your free sample of ideas from -SofDevCo- © "Brains for rent." Job opportuniy: Need freelance marketing executive, or government grant for feasability study. Undetectable kickbacks not guaranteed. -You could be our first customer. College research theses entertained. Non-disclosure agreement required. Terry K Wizz@p.com "I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast." And I have no sympathy for you or your dog. If the PWC'ers are violating the local laws or ordinances then they are criminals and should be dealt with. We don't hate cars and drivers because some people use them illegally. If they are following the letter of the law and you just "don't like the noise"... then the problem is with YOU. Unless you own your own lake, you're not guaranteed "quiet and solitude". It should probably also be noted that the new generation of PWC's are amazingly quiet... usually quieter than any other powered "boat" out there. Giz >I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast. Too many times I've > been in a tight situation on a sail boat when these dick heads think [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lady Sailor > "I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast." > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > criminals and should be dealt with. We don't hate cars and drivers > because some people use them illegally. Well, some of us do, but on general principles. > If they are following the letter of the law and you just "don't like the > noise"... then the problem is with YOU. Unless you own your own lake, > you're not guaranteed "quiet and solitude". There is a presumption of quiet enjoyment in most anchorages. And, what happened to the spirit of the law, rather than just the letter of the law? The point is that being a good neighbor has more to do with the former than the latter. > It should probably also be noted that the new generation of PWC's are > amazingly quiet... usually quieter than any other powered "boat" out > there. I guess I don't get out enough. I have yet to run over, I mean run into, I mean see/hear one of these. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com > I guess I don't get out enough. I have yet to run over, I mean run into, I > mean see/hear one of these. > > -- > "j" ganz @@ > www.sailnow.com Hi, Jon, Yes, it's true. I just sold my lake home near Atlanta, on the way out the door, so to speak, to cutting the cord. The last few days I was there, after spending most of the summer and prior two seasons working on the Flying Pig, thus not having a chance to see it, either, I saw several of the new breed of jetskis (well, technically, PWC - I can't speak to what actual Jetskis are like). Much to my surprise, I could scarcely hear them. They made every bit as much wake at slow speed, and were every bit as zippy at high speed, as the PWC they looked like, but - while I could tell it was running - it sounded a bit like a high quality I/O with a better than usual muffling job. It reminded me much more of a car than a boat noise... FWIW, on Lanier, where I used to live, we have gotten a bit more of the new breed rider than the old of late, which is refreshing to think about. Even though I'm not going to be on that lake again, most likely, ever, it's encouraging to see the evolution. And, in my runabout, if I see a jumper, I enjoy(ed) giving them a suitable wake, in an appropriate area. Some of them are definitely balletic. OTOH, the only two boats I have left which can do that are for sale and won't go "on the boat" with us, so I suspect I'll have to enjoy others' provisions, if there are any, in our cruising grounds :{)) L8R Skip, recovering from nasal and sinus surgery on the way to active shoulder rehab so I can get back to final refit and cut the cord Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain I'm guessing what you saw was what is becoming typical in PWC's - four cycle engines. Was it Lake Tahoe that was 4 cycle engines only? You also made a good point. Why is boat owners act like they own their wake. Your wake and the jetskiers who jump them are behind you. The only piece of water you own is the one your boat is on at the time and the water in your right away. Are boaters really worried that a jetski is going to hit them even though the jetski is waiting for the wake, and are traveling perpendicular to your boat's path..behind you! Giz, I totally agree with you. If jetskiers do anything illegal they deserve an expensive ticket. And, if you want a lake that you can dictate who boats and who doesn't, buy the lake. JG, please feel free to point out where in the law there is a "presumption of quiet enjoyment" ? If a sailboater finds your inboard too noisey, then would you stop boating. Consider to your own reasoning before you answer. I don't care how quiet your boat is, it's stil noise. You advertised your ignorance well when you said: "I have yet to run over, mean run into, I mean see/hear one of these." John > I have no sympathy for the jet ski enthustiast. Too many times I've > been in a tight situation on a sail boat when these dick heads think > Lady Sailor Nah, Your no lady. You're right, I take off my hat and gloves when I'm being harassed by obnoxious morons and turn straight away into a pissed off sailor. > You're right, I take off my hat and gloves when I'm being harassed by > obnoxious morons and turn straight away into a pissed off sailor. Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then yell at a power boat for impeding you. Bill McKee wrote: > Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then yell > at a power boat for impeding you. Probably like a lot of motorboaters, you have no clue what's involved in sailing, and think that all boats can be driven like a car. DSK > Bill McKee wrote: >> Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > DSK I know what is involved with sailing. Married a good sailors daughter and used to windsurf. But too many "sailors" figure they have the right of way as they have a sailboat. I have had "sailors" do a 90 degree in front of me when lifting the sails and the iron sail is still running, and then yell at me. They would yell even louder if I collided with them and when they had to pay enormous sums of money to me. >> Bill McKee wrote: >>> Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >me. They would yell even louder if I collided with them and when they had >to pay enormous sums of money to me. What's your point? If you know the Rules of the Road, there's never much doubt about who should give way. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>> Bill McKee wrote: >>>> Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > What's your point? If you know the Rules of the Road, there's never > much doubt about who should give way. You better read the Colregs. A sailboat with the motor running, is a power boat. And all boats are to avoid collisions. The sailboat has to keep going in a passing situation. They can not turn when they desire. I guess you figure you get to make the big tanker going up / down the channel to turn to avoid you. >You better read the Colregs. A sailboat with the motor running, is a power >boat. And all boats are to avoid collisions. The sailboat has to keep >going in a passing situation. They can not turn when they desire. I guess >you figure you get to make the big tanker going up / down the channel to >turn to avoid you. Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote them. What are you trying to tell us here? Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>You better read the Colregs. A sailboat with the motor running, is a >>power [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote > them. What are you trying to tell us here? That you are an idiot. >> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >> them. What are you trying to tell us here? > >That you are an idiot. Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument on the merits. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument on the >merits. Yes, you can be sure that Jon Gayanzy has NEVER resorted to name calling when it suited his own purposes. Captain Joe Redcloud 1882 Chestnut Hill Road Mohnton PA (610) 856-7118 Capt Joe, All security experts strongly recommend you do not include your address and phone number in your UseNet Posts. >>>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Mohnton PA > (610) 856-7118 >Capt Joe, >All security experts strongly recommend you do not include your address and >phone number in your UseNet Posts. He didn't. He's just trolling someone else from alt.sailing.asa. >> Captain Joe Redcloud >> 1882 Chestnut Hill Road >> Mohnton PA >> (610) 856-7118 Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com That's not his address and phone number, it's mine. Capt' Joe is an a.shole. And has been reported. SBV "Dr. Dr. Smithers" <Ask Me about my Phd @ Diploma Mill .com> wrote in message news:o6OdnWld8enSdvTeRVn-iA@comcast.com... > Capt Joe, > All security experts strongly recommend you do not include your address and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Mohnton PA > > (610) 856-7118 >That's not his address and phone number, it's mine. >Capt' Joe is an a.shole. >And has been reported. > >SBV And what did your mommy say? Captain Joe Redcloud 1882 Chestnut Hill Road Mohnton PA (610) 856-7118 >Yes, you can be sure that Jon Gayanzy has NEVER resorted to name calling when it >suited his own purposes. Poor Billy... he's got a lot of anger. Please join us in feeling sorry for him. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument on the > merits. No, just stating the obvious. >>>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >No, just stating the obvious. Yes, it's quite obvious what you are and why you're doing it... PWCER!!!! Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>>>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>>>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, it's quite obvious what you are and why you're doing > it... PWCER!!!! Such anger. And my PWC has 350 CID and 330 hp. Big PWC. Bill McKee wrote: >>>>>>Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>>>>>them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Such anger. And my PWC has 350 CID and 330 hp. Big PWC. Oh Billy, What you have is still a little toy boat with the same engine my mother had in her station wagon. If it is a powered vessel less that 10kdwt or not over 4khp I won't even list it my log as sea time. You really should go take a safe boating course somewhere - anywhere. In the mean time, if you really want to learn - go to http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm and buy or download a real copy of COMDTINST M16672.2 (by-the-by nothing you have said is supported between the covers.) A man of much experience once said to me "The only thing required to run one of those little motorboats is a credit rating." Matt Colie Lifelong Waterman and Licensed Mariner (Chf Stm & Mtr, Pilot 10k Grt Lks, Mst VUS Offshore 100t) > Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Lifelong Waterman and Licensed Mariner (Chf Stm & Mtr, Pilot 10k Grt Lks, > Mst VUS Offshore 100t) So you are a drunk also. Bill McKee wrote: >>Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > So you are a drunk also. Oh billy, Again you show your true capability. Please, quit while you still can. You have demonstrated a amazingly clear lack of any understanding of the sited Colregs. (This was a part of the exams for the cert listed.) And, you have answered and proved finally and personaly to me a long standing standing question I have had: If man had not invented canned beer, would anybody have ever bother to develop recreational powerboats? You have just given proof positive on that account. Now go play with your little toy boat that takes no skill to operate (so impaired judgement is not and issue - so you believe - i.e. requires much less capability than any sailing dink) and has less horse power than my engines need to just crank (about a third of a bow thruster)and be sure you watch out for those dangerous sailboats out there. Demand your rights on the water and please, tell all teh good people here what water you inhabit so we may avoid your kingdom. Matt - see prior sig > Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Matt - see prior sig So you turn when a sailboat crosses in front of your ship? Bill McKee wrote: >>Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > So you turn when a sailboat crosses in front of your ship? You sound 5 short blasts, go hard astern and turn. That's all you can do. Doing nothing is not an option. Gary > Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Gary And you put your tanker on the rocks entering San Francisco bay. Bill McKee wrote: >>Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > And you put your tanker on the rocks entering San Francisco bay. Sure, we are all that stupid. > Bill McKee wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >> And you put your tanker on the rocks entering San Francisco bay. > Sure, we are all that stupid. Sounds like you are. >>>>Doing nothing is not an option. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Sounds like you are. > [Bill] I am tired of hearing you two bicker. Why don't you cut rec.boats. building and rec.boats.cruising from your distribution? Please? PLEASE? Brian Whatcott p.s. You are both traceable - don't get me mad. >>>>>Doing nothing is not an option. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Brian Whatcott > p.s. You are both traceable - don't get me mad. I hope I don't sound like I'm bickering. I am treating this thread as a interesting Rules of the Road discussion and a bit of a review. It's not often that I get to hear the point of view of amateurs or recreational boaters on RofR situations. It is causing me to refer to my books and think. Sorry if you aren't enjoying the thread. Gary >>>>>>Doing nothing is not an option. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Gary I think Brian is mostly referring to the bickering part - I apologize for my part in it. I think it's generally a worthwhile discussion of RofR situations. Sometimes the situation is not straightforward of course, and it requires some quick thinking. When I'm teaching, it's not atypical that we're in the midst of significant traffic with a number of different types of vessels... anything from tankers going in both directions, even three sometimes, to sailboats and cabin cruiser types, to small dinghies and human power boats, and even swimmers. I'll typically ask my students, who has stand-on or give way status for a particular boat, say port over starboard, then ask them about another boat coming from a different direction, then about the ferry, then about the kayaker, etc. It makes for an interesting sail if nothing else. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com > I think Brian is mostly referring to the bickering part - I apologize for my > part in it. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > coming from a different direction, then about the ferry, then about the > kayaker, etc. It makes for an interesting sail if nothing else. When you are teaching multiple target situations, how do you prioritize them? Do you run plots with time to CPA? I have a hard time explaining to my watchkeepers that the closest is not always the most threatening and that whatever they do it has to not compound the next situation. > > I think Brian is mostly referring to the bickering part - I apologize > for my [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to my watchkeepers that the closest is not always the most threatening and > that whatever they do it has to not compound the next situation. Not familiar with the term CPA. Since this is a teaching situation, I try not to get them into a situation that is going to be overwhelming. We look at potential collision courses of the targets first, then I have them sort out plans of action. You're right of course. Many times, it's not the closest that one needs to be mindful of.. we also try and make an assessment about the level of knowledge on the other boat. Sometimes it's a shock when they do or don't do the right thing. :-) >> > I think Brian is mostly referring to the bickering part - I apologize >>for my [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > about the level of knowledge on the other boat. Sometimes it's a shock when > they do or don't do the right thing. :-) Closest Point of Approach >>> > I think Brian is mostly referring to the bickering part - I apologize >>>for my [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> > Closest Point of Approach Ahh... thanks. We don't do formal ones during the on-the-water class. Eyeball only. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >> When you are teaching multiple target situations, how do you >> prioritize them? Do you run plots with time to CPA? I have a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not familiar with the term CPA. Jeeze, Jon, how did you get that license? Did you take a course? (must of just been 6-pak, not master) I could understand if someone from FL didn't know it, but in your area, as well as mine, you should take fog seriously. > >> When you are teaching multiple target situations, how do you > >> prioritize them? Do you run plots with time to CPA? I have a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > just been 6-pak, not master) I could understand if someone from FL didn't > know it, but in your area, as well as mine, you should take fog seriously. Never saw closest point of approach abbreviated. Got the license in the usual way... box of cereal, right? Fog seriously? Naw, just the big ships in it. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >If man had not invented canned beer, would anybody have ever bother to >develop recreational powerboats? I suspect that boats and beer were pretty much a case of parallel development - they just seem to go together. >> Bill McKee wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >So you are a drunk also. Bless you my son. Jon, In a passing situation both boats must maintain their course and heading. Some boaters, both power and sail do not understand the ColRegs, the biggest problem some sail boaters make is assuming they are a sailboat when they are under power, and assuming they have the right of way under all conditions when they are under sail. >>> Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote >>> them. What are you trying to tell us here? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument on the > merits. >Jon, >In a passing situation both boats must maintain their course and heading. >Some boaters, both power and sail do not understand the ColRegs, the biggest >problem some sail boaters make is assuming they are a sailboat when they are >under power, and assuming they have the right of way under all conditions >when they are under sail. No kidding?? Yes, I happen to know that Dr. S. Did you see the post from him about doing 25MPH 15 FEET from another boat? Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>Jon, >>In a passing situation both boats must maintain their course and heading. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No kidding?? Yes, I happen to know that Dr. S. Did you see the post > from him about doing 25MPH 15 FEET from another boat? Happens all the time in narrow channels. And if they are all going in the same direction, there is no problem. It is when an idiot like you decides that the world revolves around you and can change direction on a whim. You do this on the freeway also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You change lanes on a whim? On your bicycle you change lanes on a whim? Bill, If there was an accident and you were doing 25 mph within 15 ft. of another boat, in a narrow channel, even if the other boat changed direction on a whim, you would most likely be found partially responsibility for the accident. >>>Jon, >>>In a passing situation both boats must maintain their course and heading. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You do this on the freeway also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You > change lanes on a whim? On your bicycle you change lanes on a whim? >Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> You do this on the freeway also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You >> change lanes on a whim? On your bicycle you change lanes on a whim? More than partially. Significantly. You see, he doesn't give a crap about the effect his 40-foot boat has on anyone else. Wake be damned. This is the sort of person who institutionalizes giving powerboaters a bad name. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Bill McKee wrote: > "Jonathan Ganz" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> wrote in message ... >> No kidding?? Yes, I happen to know that Dr. S. Did you see the post >> from him about doing 25MPH 15 FEET from another boat? > > Happens all the time in narrow channels. Are you Crazy??? Please tell us which waterway its customary to do 25 mph within 15 feet of another vessel underway. I've seen pwc's do this, but that could explain why they are reviled by most other boaters. > And if they are all going in the > same direction, there is no problem. It is when an idiot like you decides > that the world revolves around you and can change direction on a whim. You > do this on the freeway also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You change > lanes on a whim? On your bicycle you change lanes on a whim? Bad analogy, Bill. On the highway everyone has the same purpose, and traveling in a consistent manner serves the collective purpose. Boaters have to remember that every other boater has a different agenda and is seeing the world in a different way. When that sailboat started preparing to turn you were half a mile away, possibly even on a different course. Your insistence that he turned 15 feet in front of you simply proves that that you're the one who was cluelessly assuming that the world revolves around your desires. > Bill McKee wrote: >> And if they are all going in the same direction, there is no problem. >> It is when an idiot like you decides that the world revolves around >> you and can change direction on a whim. Nobody is changing directions "on a whim." The fact that you don't understand a thing about sailboats, sailing, or indeed much of anything apparently, makes it all very mysterious & whimsical to you. >> ... You do this on the freeway >> also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You change lanes on a whim? On >> your bicycle you change lanes on a whim? > Bad analogy, Bill. A very bad analogy, and one that further proves my point that Bill & "Dr Dr" and most of the rest are hopeless. They think driving a boat is like driving a car. Any point based on seamanship, maritime principles, etc etc, are all far above their comprehension. I wonder how long they spent looking for the brake pedal in their boat. > ... Your insistence that he turned 15 feet in front of > you simply proves that that you're the one who was cluelessly assuming > that the world revolves around your desires. And that he was too close & too fast in the first place, but he's already dismissed that inconvenient fact. Besides, there aren't any yellow or white lines painted on the water, so who's to know which way you're supposed to go? That darn sailboat didn't even have his turn signal on! DSK >>> Bill McKee wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > What's your point? If you know the Rules of the Road, there's never > much doubt about who should give way. Surely not the overtaking vessel? Must a vessel desiring to turn from main channel to side route stand on past a harbour entrance because a zoomer wants to pass between them and their port? Could we invent turn signals for slow boats, to give those with power, speed and a lack of courteous patience a more easily notable legal signal of intentions to turn, given that noisy power vessels make horn signals adequate for listening and watching sailors inaudible aboard kilowatt stereo disco boats? Or would such unauthorized lighting distract starlet eyed go boaters from their fore deck ornaments? Do these power mongers not understand the need of sailors to turn into the wind to hoist their main sails? Nor is there much doubt as to how hard it is to hit a planing power boat with a sail boat, and vice versa. Honest savvy power boaters well know the paranoid schizophrenia they have forced on sailors and the bad reputation their wild mannered birds of similar feathering have cultivated for them, well know the secret rabid detestation that fires every sailor's killing passions and undeniable mad obsession with reach ramming power boats who so foolishly come so close as to make possible such sweet, aching temptation to chisel yet another notch in their stems, and well know to stay away, as they should from a starved tiger on a short chain. Those who actually get rammed by sailboats have no one to blame but themselves, (even the law of the sea agrees,) unless their canny X's have topped the limit on their gas cards, and the grinning fates deliver them to their well deserved, slow motion fates. Gradual horror overtake them, woe by tides and drift the planing challenged fume less speed boater who dallies wake less long enough for the long plotting sailors' pack to organize, isolate, surround and subsume their deserving victims, should Poseidon aid them and grant conspiring seas, wind and grant calls for rights to starboard tack. Like a wounded fawn in the teeth of crippled octogenarian wolves, surely their vessels shall be dismembered and dispersed without trace, like diseased baby seals in the toothless jaws of tired and gallopless killer whales. Aarrgghh! The longer takes the victory, the sweeter the vine of triumph, the sweeter the smoke of the roasting. May they all overheat;^) Terry K Hi Terry I guess from your post that you dont like power boaters :-) Power boaters are like car drivers who crash into buses when they stop at bus stops and then complain that the bus should not have stopped! Sailboats are always unpredictable by their nature so I can never understand why so many powerboaters have to overtake sooo close even when there is plenty of searoom Tony uk >>>> Bill McKee wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Terry K > Hi Terry > I guess from your post that you dont like power boaters :-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Tony uk That is at the crux, but it does not apply to all power boaters, only to the sourest creamy scum at the height of arrogance, ignorance and hubris. Most boaters come to realize that railing at loggerheads or swimmers will never do them any good, and their best defence against collision with rocks or slow boats in the grips of the wind and tides is to give them sea room. Those who complain about rocks that bash in the fronts of their boats are only denying the truth. These types are the ones who speed through narrow channels and complain because they really believe that sailors are doing what they cannot understand to be necessary, but are doing it only to inconvenience them. Nor do they want to learn why, or how, unfortunately, because they would improve their own chances if they did learn and appreciate the powers that the sea and wind exercise over those dedicated to exploring and enjoying nature's natural force, akin to skiers versus snowmobilers. A sailboat is at the whim of the winds, like grass on a golf course. It is not the fault of the grass that the golf ball be deflected by the hazards of the course, if the golfer choose his shot, then execute it poorly, coming too close to the rough. Better he should continue to golf, and improve his game, but he never will so long as he blames his tools, or the course. I love all those who share my love of the water and messing about in boats. I would help, even if by what seems criticism, those who would listen: the wind makes sailboats do unexpected things. Smart boaters know this. Fools complain they were disrespected when it is they who disrespect nature, physics, and other's needs and rights. The Colregs recognize reality, and sailors who decide to raise their sails, even though they would waste no time doing it, are easily overtaken by myopic rocket drivers who cannot conceive it is their choice to crowd rocks, swimmers and other hazards like sailors battling to raise or lower sails even with an assist from an engine which is totally inadequate to control all aspects of such operations. Some boaters use any excuse to claim rights, even when their arguments are specious: flagging a sail gives them no more rights over power, than they deserve as power drivers themselves, but smart boater know that dragging a sail through the action of setting it in a wind strong enough to make sailing profitable impedes their ability and scope of control over their navigation ability, not to mention winch knots, flying fish, and lines snarled on necks, spectacles or tiller handles. Sailors are often a busy lot, easy to sneak up on, if abusing one as a suicide assistant is what you want. Understanding and courtesy are boundaries of contractual civilization. Those unfit to abide or survive deserve to perish, and though we might complain that nature is cruel, it is man's stupidity that causes problems to be handled incompetently. Neither sailors nor power boaters may avoid nature, and all must grant to others those rights and that respect that they desire for themselves before there is hope that they may be granted what they desire for themselves. All must make allowances for slips and yips and snags, and the fact that a small problem can become a large one if the spectators press too close, and their fellow golfer loses his grip. In short, sailors sail or perish, some power boaters don't care about anything except speed and power, and damn the rest. These eventually reap what they sow. Then, they complain and try to hide the obvious behind a technical argument. The best solution would be for those not understanding to take a cruise on a sailboat during a bluster. Their respect might improve, provided they did not soil themselves. Their perspective might improve, nonetheless. Terry K >>>>>Bill McKee wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >> >>Terry K >>>> Bill McKee wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Terry K And what about the power boater that will become a sailboat after he raises his sails and turns off the motor. Just because he carries sails, he should have all the right of way? I carry a paddle on my powerboat, should I not have right of way over a sailboat? >And what about the power boater that will become a sailboat after he raises >his sails and turns off the motor. Just because he carries sails, he should >have all the right of way? I carry a paddle on my powerboat, should I not >have right of way over a sailboat? Bill, you really need to read the Rules of the Road section of the colregs... really.... just read them and get back to us. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >>And what about the power boater that will become a sailboat after he >>raises [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Bill, you really need to read the Rules of the Road section of the > colregs... really.... just read them and get back to us. Answer my questions if you can. And refer to the Colregs as to why that sailboater with the engine running is a sailboat. > >>And what about the power boater that will become a sailboat after he > >>raises [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Answer my questions if you can. And refer to the Colregs as to why that > sailboater with the engine running is a sailboat. Everyone knows its not a sailboat, but it is most often, a very underpowered powerboat with limited maneuvering ability, a deeper draft than the average powerboat and more affected by the wind (even with the sails down). Signaturesig goes here >> >>And what about the power boater that will become a sailboat after he >> >>raises [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > than the average powerboat and more affected by the wind (even with the > sails down). Everyone does not seem to know it is a powerboat. And as to the rest of the stuff, means nada. Bill McKee wrote: ... > Answer my questions if you can. And refer to the Colregs as to why that > sailboater with the engine running is a sailboat. Rule 3 (c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used. It says "being used" not "running." Big difference. And its specifically mentions "propelling machinery" implying the engine must be used for propelling. Would you claim that an engine being used for ballast makes it a powerboat? Further, if you're on another boat and see an exhaust from a sailboat that otherwise appears to be sailing, are you free to treat it as a powerboat? Of course not, that might simply be a genset. Sorry Bill, its pretty clear you don't really understand the rules. > Bill McKee wrote: > ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Sorry Bill, its pretty clear you don't really understand the rules. Bzzt: You are wrong. Bill McKee wrote: >> Bill McKee wrote: >> ... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Bzzt: You are wrong. Bzzt: You are wrong. And its pretty clear you're a dangerous jackass who doesn't belong on the water. Anyone who claims its common and proper to pass within 15 feet of boats doing 25 MPH shouldn't be out there. > proper to pass within 15 feet of boats doing 25 MPH shouldn't be out > there. It's 50 ft in South Carolina...just like for a dock. 200' from the marina. SignatureLarry Here are a couple of the applicable rules to consider. Note the specific rule for vessels less than 20 metres or a sailing vessel (any length) in a narrow channel. Note the specific rule on overtaking in narrow channels. There are also rules on safe speed which I am happy to provide to help the discussion. People with more savvy than any of use created and continue to improve the rules. It is up to us to learn them. Rule 9 Narrow Channels--International (a)A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable. (b)A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. (d)A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel. (e)(i)In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only if the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d). (ii) This Rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13. Rule 13 Overtaking--International (a)Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. (d)Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear. > Narrow Channels--International All this is great....if you're a ship from Le Havre. But, the jetski guy has his South Carolina Dept of Natural Resources, Boater's Handbook. (The guy on the sailboat probably doesn't have anything...and I'm serious.) Whatever bureaucrats are in charge locally are the ones that set the rules and bust them in the harbor and ICW. No boater safety course actually teaches these International Rules. So, the rules he goes by (assuming he goes by rules and is a nice guy with family out for a PWC cruise, not some freak, which most of them really are not) is the Boater's Handbook DNR handed him when he took his 2 sons to the PWC training course DNR ran at the high school so the boys could get their little DNR drivers permits. It says 50' from boats and docks and 200' from marinas. This nonsense of 8 layers of rule-making bureaucrats, all different in every fiefdom you boat across, is REALLY STUPID!! SignatureLarry >>Narrow Channels--International > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > This nonsense of 8 layers of rule-making bureaucrats, all different in > every fiefdom you boat across, is REALLY STUPID!! You are right. There are really only two sets of over-arching rules, the Colregs and the Inland Rules. Adhere to those and all is well. The people that don't learn them cause us all to come to grief. > You are right. There are really only two sets of over-arching rules, > the Colregs and the Inland Rules. Adhere to those and all is well. The > people that don't learn them cause us all to come to grief. It kills some of the yahoos that a slow moving sailboat has right of way over their 300hp, gas guzzlin', air polluting monstrosity. >> You are right. There are really only two sets of over-arching rules, >> the Colregs and the Inland Rules. Adhere to those and all is well. >> The people that don't learn them cause us all to come to grief. > > It kills some of the yahoos that a slow moving sailboat has right of way > over their 300hp, gas guzzlin', air polluting monstrosity. Kinda like pedestrians, bicycles and cars. Although might has right it is not correct. |
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