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Boat Forum / Building / December 2005engine replacement question
A friend has offered me his old Pearson sailboat. It is in good shape. But, it needs a new engine. It has the original Atomic 4 gas. What diesel engine would be the best replacement? How much do the diesels cost? How much work is it the replace an old Atomic 4 in a 1968 year sailboat? When replacing the engine, does the shaft, fuel tank etc also get replaced? Any other info??? Thanks,,, Tom Several manufacturers offer 'Atomic 4 Replacement' diesel engines. Most are based on the same Kubota 3 cylinder block, the only difference being the 'marinization' of the engine. Too, Yanmar has a similar size / weight engine not based on Kubota. Here's the list; Universal M3-20B Phasor Marine P3-20-SM Beta Marine BD722 Yanmar 3YM20 Westerbeke 20B2 or 30B3 Vetus M 3.09 (Mitsubishi?) If weight is a concern, the first 3 (the Kubota derivatives) have a 'dry' weight of around 230 lbs. The last three are closer to 290 lbs. The cost of the basic engine + standard gear reduction (less high-end meter/light panel or other options) is *around* 6 - 8K$US. Often the best deals are had at boat shows, so if you're looking to save $, enquire at a major show. This price does *not* include installation; you get the engine on a wooden pallet. I expect that the fuel tank *could* be reused, but only after careful inspection for corrosion. The shaft and drive train may need to be replaced, depending on the physical dimensions of the installtion. I do *not* believe there are *any* "drop in, plug and play" Atomic 4 swap outs. MW If the A-4 runs, do not replace it. You will never recoup the cost. Any safety concerns about having a gas engine can be covered by following proper safety procedures. This is a good point. As for safety what is the difference between having a 10 pounds propane tank of two (with snifter) on board Vs having 10 - 20 gallons of gasoline. The safety issue is relevant many diesel owners do carry 5 to 10 gallons of gasoline for their dinghy gas motors outboard anyway. > If the A-4 runs, do not replace it. You will never recoup the cost. > Any safety concerns about having a gas engine can be covered by > following proper safety procedures. 1) Any fuel tank that old needs to be replaced no matter how good it appears to be. 2) Diesel requires a baffled tank. > Several manufacturers offer 'Atomic 4 Replacement' diesel engines. > Most are based on the same Kubota 3 cylinder block, the only difference [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > MW > 1) Any fuel tank that old needs to be replaced no matter how good it > appears to be. Why? > 2) Diesel requires a baffled tank. For what reason? Foaming? >> Several manufacturers offer 'Atomic 4 Replacement' diesel engines. >> Most are based on the same Kubota 3 cylinder block, the only difference [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> MW  Signature“The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis.” >> 1) Any fuel tank that old needs to be replaced no matter how good it >> appears to be. > > Why? A guy who does fuel polishing told me there's two kinds of people who own twenty year old fuel tanks, "Those who know they have a problem, and everyone else." If you don't get it, ALL twenty year old tanks are a leak waiting to happen. >> 2) Diesel requires a baffled tank. > > For what reason? Foaming? A little suspended air in the fuel can ruin your day. >>> Several manufacturers offer 'Atomic 4 Replacement' diesel engines. >>> Most are based on the same Kubota 3 cylinder block, the only difference [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >>> >>> MW >> 1) Any fuel tank that old needs to be replaced no matter how good it >> appears to be. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>> >>> MW And, the additional weight may upset the vessel's trim. Rebuild it. Winter's here. Any decent machine shop would love the job. You will love it. Terry K > A friend has offered me his old Pearson sailboat. It is in good shape. > But, it needs a new engine. It has the original Atomic 4 gas. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thanks,,, Tom People who have actually done the replacements generally report expenses of 10-15 thousand dollars. Non of the engines on the market just "drop in" as they would like you to believe. On the other hand, a rebuilt as good as new Atomic 4 engine, which has served the boat well already for some 30 odd years, can usually be had for just under 5K, and they are usually quieter than diesels to begin with. Look at www.moyermarine.com, or the list servers at SailNet.com or Sailjazz.com (there was a very active A-4 owners group, but where it settled *exactly* I haven't yet focused on). Simply running some solvents through the cooling system and installing an electronic ignition, both of which can be done for less than $150.00 can make the engine run like new. Check it out before you burn a lot of money unnecessarily. Jonathan SignatureI am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out: http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr >On the other hand, a rebuilt as good as new Atomic 4 engine, which has >served the boat well already for some 30 odd years, can usually be had >for just under 5K, and they are usually quieter than diesels to begin with. I had my '73 Atomic 4 block rebuilt for $1,200 by auto rebuilders. I reassembled the engine myself with new gaskets ($100) and got a mechanic to test it, paint it and help me install it. That was $900. I spent another $600 for a new tank, hoses, exhaust, Vetus water lock (got for free in mint condition) and AquaPro fuel/water separator, various clamps and ballcocks. I put it in the boat August 1 and had over 100 hours on it by haul-out Oct. 22. Ran like a champ. I picked up a second A4 and rebuilt the block and it's in "cold storage" for immediate drop-in (which is about a six-hour job to cycle out the engines and transfer various bits). It's cheap insurance when your season is May 1-Oct 22. And with a 32-year-old boat worth at best $25K, putting $10K or better of new diesel into it, plus the mods I'd need to do to the shaft log, fuel system, etc.,would be foolhardy. I can buy/install about four Atomic 4s for every diesel, and as I've picked up a whack of spares for trade, barter and sale, I have a nice little sideline. Do what you will, but it's better than 50% that A4 can be revived, refreshed and rebuilt to drive the Pearson for another couple of decades. R. >>On the other hand, a rebuilt as good as new Atomic 4 engine, which has >>served the boat well already for some 30 odd years, can usually be had [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > R. ========================================= I had a call back from a Westerbeke engine rep.. He said the replacement engine for the Atomic 4 was $7100. It weighs around 275 lbs. It goes on the same mounts as the AT 4. There might be some other work ... fuel tank, etc. I am learning soooo much. In early Pearsons, the A4 installations were raw water cooled, so that in salt water the engines were toast after 15 years or so. A good fresh-water A4 might be a good replacement. In any case, the original Pearson work on tanks, exhausts and engine beds was awful and should be re-engineered. I owned such a boat and re-powered with a Westerbeke. It was somewhat bulkier than the A4 and we therefore lost some space in the galley. I never regretted the investment. > >>On the other hand, a rebuilt as good as new Atomic 4 engine, which has > >>served the boat well already for some 30 odd years, can usually be had [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > I am learning soooo much. > In early Pearsons, the A4 installations were raw water cooled, so that in > salt water the engines were toast after 15 years or so. A good fresh-water [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> >>I am learning soooo much. Which Westerbeke model please ? Thanks, Courtney >>>On the other hand, a rebuilt as good as new Atomic 4 engine, which has >>>served the boat well already for some 30 odd years, can usually be had [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > I am learning soooo much. To which Westerbeke model did he refer, please ? Thank you, Courtney >> A friend has offered me his old Pearson sailboat. It is in good >> shape. But, it needs a new engine. It has the original Atomic 4 gas. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Jonathan What solvents are best for this and how should this procedure be carried out ? Is better cooling the sole consequence ? Thank you, Courtney >>> A friend has offered me his old Pearson sailboat. It is in good >>> shape. But, it needs a new engine. It has the original Atomic 4 gas. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Thank you, > Courtney There is a product called, I believe, "MarSolve" which is made specifically for this purpose (cleaning out blocks/water jackets). I have also read of people using vinegar, oxalic acid or muriatic acid. On an engine older than the A-4 I had pretty good luck with a product called "Drainz" a high concentration of sulfuric acid. When I have done this I have done it with the boat out of the water. I've connected a hose to the output of the manifold and run it outside the boat. A second hose is attached so that I can clamp a funnel into it, at a height slightly above the engine. I've filled the engine with the acid mixture, let it sit a while (20-30 min) then flushed a lot of water through it. I went from an engine that would not cool enough to run more than about 5 minutes, to being able to run as long as I cared to have it running. YMMV Hope this helps, Jonathan SignatureI am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out: http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr Tom, Two things to start with: Look up www.goodoldboat.com you might want the free issue, but you also might just as well subsribe now. Bookmark www.moyermarine.com that is the current best source for A4 parts. Is this a fresh or saltwater boat? In any case: Examine your alternatives carefully. Are you a competent mechanic or can you get a hold of one? A complete rebuild of an old A4 is about 6-700$us in parts. The hard part is getting it out of the boat. The price quoted for a new diesel is about right, but count on another 2k$us to install (I have seen it be twice that). They can be had used, but can you get a good answer as to why it was removed? If it is a fresh water boat, the fiberglass will weather away before the A4 corrodes to distruction. What Peason is it? What condition is the rest of the hull and rig? Matt Colie > A friend has offered me his old Pearson sailboat. It is in good shape. > But, it needs a new engine. It has the original Atomic 4 gas. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thanks,,, Tom > Tom, > Two things to start with: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > A complete rebuild of an old A4 is about 6-700$us in parts. The hard > part is getting it out of the boat. Which, mind, you will have to do anyway, if the pan needs to come off to effect a repair, if you can avoid a rebuild. Real men love this kind of sh.t, and any decent mechanic can tell you what minimum the engine needs, in about 10 minutes! You could tell, if you understand compression, fuel, and spark. Does it spin over OK? A six pack will make removing the engine happen, where I come from. If you pull the mounts with the engine, it will fall back in easily, with no shaft realignment required. Changing tranny, engine bed, batteries, tank, exhaust, etc is not worth the pain, and the safety of diesel is so high priced and so unproductive as to be not cost effective (how often do you hear that some one with a stuffed up nose actually dropped his zippo into a puddle of gas in the bilge?) The navy is right: it is safer to have only one fuel on board, and it the most war explosion proof. The A4 is an old friend, been around forever, was "the best" once. May still be if cost effectiveness is figured. This is a toy boat, right? A business boat is cost deductible. Do you have a "hobby business?" It's a great investment in business education. Put an ad in the paper: "Boat for rent." Don't, for heavan's sake, rent it yet, you are just getting started. Get a receipt for the ad, and buy a copy of the paper, with a receipt. Pay for the boat, get a receipt, let your buddy treat you to a Trip to Las Vegas, later. You need to generate expenses, for when you sell the boat. Then try to fix it. Messing about in boats is the best way to waste time. The most relaxed cursing you will ever do is at a boat that you care for and love. Is it any wonder they call boats "She?" Is it any wonder we all wish to be watch officers, Captains? -Even Engineering officers? Terry K > The price quoted for a new diesel is about right, but count on another > 2k$us to install (I have seen it be twice that). They can be had used, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Thanks,,, Tom |
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