You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
if we put out boats in the water!
http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html

Signature
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Don W - 15 Sep 2006 16:07 GMT
You are right. I don't believe it.
Don W.
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Glenn Ashmore - 15 Sep 2006 16:41 GMT
> You are right. I don't believe it.
>
> Don W.
Well, it ain't April Fools Day. This is a real Federal judge and he is dead
serious. Get outside the "main shipping channel" of any navigable waters of
the US and you are guilty of criminal trespass.

Signature
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Roger Long - 15 Sep 2006 16:37 GMT
I googled up the case and some other documents. It looks like a much
bigger deal if you are a fisherman than a boater. It seems to involve
access to the water that covers the intertidal zone when the tide is
above low.
I don't see how this could be an issue in this part of the world where
access to the intertidal zone for fishing and navigation is already
common law. There have been some attempts up this way by landowners
to say that sunbathing and reading books are neither fishing nor
navigation but no serious attempt to say that recreational boating is
not navigation.
If the common law in the river states is such that landowner's
property extends to the low tide line, this could be a huge flap.

Signature
Roger Long
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a
> criminal act if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Glenn Ashmore - 15 Sep 2006 16:55 GMT
>I googled up the case and some other documents. It looks like a much
>bigger deal if you are a fisherman than a boater. It seems to involve
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If the common law in the river states is such that landowner's property
> extends to the low tide line, this could be a huge flap.
The problem is that the ruling limits access to only the "main shipping
channel". Also Louisiana law grants public access to the whole river up to
the normal high water mark. Common law grants access to the banks and
portages. This ruling negates both.
I don't think you can get away with thinking you can't worry about it
because it doesn't effect me because in all probability it will soon. I
don't mean to adopt the NRA's "don't give an inch" philosophy but this is
way more than an inch. Theoretically based on this ruling a shore side
property owner could go to Federal court and win a judgment voiding all the
mooring permits in front of his property out to the main channel.

Signature
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Roger Long - 15 Sep 2006 17:14 GMT
> I don't think you can get away with thinking you can't worry about
> it because it doesn't effect me because in all probability it will
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and win a judgment voiding all the mooring permits in front of his
> property out to the main channel.
I don't see that "main channel" here means the buoyed shipping
channel. but just the part of the river that is wet 24 hours a day.
There aren't likely to be any moorings outside of that. Unless I'm
misreading something, this applies to the areas shown in dark green on
the chart.
This is still pretty serious and worth a big fight. I'll be surprised
if it stands up though. It's sort of like saying any property owner
can restrict aircraft flights over their property. There's a group in
MA trying that but I don't think it's going to sick.

Signature
Roger Long
Larry - 15 Sep 2006 23:28 GMT
> Theoretically based on this ruling a shore side
> property owner could go to Federal court and win a judgment voiding
> all the mooring permits in front of his property out to the main
> channel.
Ah, we now see the root of the problem....control.
You cannot moor a boat anywhere around Hilton Head Island, already, long
before this ruling. SC has a law the millionaires passed saying that any
waterfront fiefdom controlled "one mile to seaward" from the shore of their
fiefdom. So, all they needed then was to write a city ordinance banning
boating, which, effectively is what they've done. The ordinance says you
can pass by his mansion, as long as you don't stop and spoil his personal
view.....
One waterfront land owner said she didn't want to look out her waterfront
and see that "floating trailer park" (marina) next door. Looks like they
may be able to get rid of them, too!

Signature
There's amazing intelligence in the Universe.
You can tell because none of them ever called Earth.
Mike Harris - 15 Sep 2006 17:37 GMT
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal
> act if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Glenn,
You do understand that Louisiana judges have a reputation in the legal
industry of... er, how shall I put this... a rather poetic interpretation of
Federal statutes as applied within the state. Texas attorneys are routinely
advised to steer well clear of "swamp law" wherever possible.
I predict a fairly rapid reversal on appeal.
--
Mike Harris
Austin, TX
KLC Lewis - 15 Sep 2006 17:42 GMT
>> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal
>> act if we put out boats in the water!
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Mike Harris
> Austin, TX
In the meantime, I think it would be a very good idea for those of us who
may be affected by this draconian ruling to make as much noise about it as
possible.
Jim Conlin - 15 Sep 2006 19:22 GMT
I'm guessing that this judge is trying to be stupid enough for W to appoint
him to the supreme court.
> > You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal
> > act if we put out boats in the water!
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Mike Harris
> Austin, TX
MMC - 17 Sep 2006 14:58 GMT
OR receive a Freedom Medal.
> I'm guessing that this judge is trying to be stupid enough for W to
> appoint
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> Mike Harris
>> Austin, TX
Peggie Hall - 15 Sep 2006 18:09 GMT
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Y'all seem have to missed the point. The judge didn't say it was illegal
to fish or hunt out of the main channel, the ruled that hunters and
fishermen don't have the right to hunt or fish on flooded lands that are
normally outside the riverbank...flooded private land.
Iow, if your house is on riverfront property, anyone who walked or drove
into your front yard to hunt or fish would be trespassing. The judge's
ruling only means that it would still be trespassing if the river
overflows and floods your front yard, allowing hunters or fishermen
invade your property by boat...that hunters and fishermen have to stay
IN public waterways...that they don't have the right go anywhere they
want to just 'cuz there happens to be enough flood water over it
temporarily that's deep enough to float a boat.
But as usual, the media found a way to make a big deal out of nothing.

Signature
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304
BellSouth - 16 Sep 2006 03:38 GMT
As usual Peggie, it looks like most folks had rather get all excited about
something that really "understand" the issue. From the following link:
http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=213 we can read what the
judge "really" said.
Here is where Peggie is talking the judge says it is trespassing to be on
someone's property when it's flooded.
James wrote in his ruling. "However, . the court denies to adopt Magistrate
Judge Kirk's recommendation that the plaintiffs have a federal common-law
right to fish and hunt on the Mississippi River, up to the high-water mark,
when it floods privately owned land."
Here is where the judge says the banks of the river when not flooded are
subject to public use to the ORDINARY HIGH-WATER MARK.
"Walker Cottonwood Farms' property (where the arrests were made) is a bank
of the Mississippi River and subject to public use to the ordinary
high-water mark, as defined by Louisiana law."
Here the judge says again the judge says the land is open to fish and hunt
TO THE ORDINARY HIGH-WATER MARK, but not on to the land that is only
flooded.
"have a right to fish and hunt on the Mississippi River up to the ordinary
high-water mark when it periodically floods Walker Cottonwood Farms'
property."
Just another case of the idea of "ethics in reporting" is to increase
circulation.
Ken H>
Glenn Ashmore - 16 Sep 2006 12:53 GMT
> "have a right to fish and hunt on the Mississippi River up to the ordinary
> high-water mark when it periodically floods Walker Cottonwood Farms'
> property."
You missed a few important words that came in front of that quote:
"But he then reversed course, ruling that the group of anglers did NOT "have
a right to fish and hunt on the Mississippi River up to the ordinary
high-water mark when it periodically floods Walker Cottonwood Farms'
property." "
Does that mean that you are restricted to the normal low water line when the
river is flooding or does it mean if it ever floods?
It is pretty well established that you can't go on flooded property when the
body is over its banks but this concerns use of the waters BETWEEN the
normal low and high water marks. In the case of a number of impoundments
where the water level varies considerably that could restrict access to
several hundred yards of water.

Signature
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
BellSouth - 16 Sep 2006 13:52 GMT
You are correct Glenn, there was some confusion in the way the article was
written.... but from my reading, it "seemed" to say the point he was ruling
on was the normally "not flooded" land that folks did not have access to
when it's flooded. BUT in South LA, there are times it's really hard to
determine what is "ordinary high-water" because the land can flood every
spring.
Is land that "normally floods each season" considered as "normal high
water"? Or as "flooded land"...
IF the ruling is for "normal high water" as in "High Tide" - it will not
stand very long, IF they have the money to fight it.
I think my definitation would be based on "could the land farmed"? How
often is the land dry vs flooded?
Glenn, I am glad you brought this to the groups attention.
Ken H>
KLC Lewis - 16 Sep 2006 16:08 GMT
> You are correct Glenn, there was some confusion in the way the article was
> written.... but from my reading, it "seemed" to say the point he was
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Ken H>
I contacted Boat US about this. They are aware of it, and are concerned, and
are taking action. So I tend to think that we are not misreading or
misinterpreting the judge's ruling.
Don White - 15 Sep 2006 18:20 GMT
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
If this is fact.. you all had better run, not walk, to the nearest
Canadian Embassy and apply for citizenship. Act now...beat the crowds.
Wm Watt - 15 Sep 2006 19:42 GMT
> > You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> > if we put out boats in the water!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If this is fact.. you all had better run, not walk, to the nearest
> Canadian Embassy and apply for citizenship. Act now...beat the crowds.
The province of New Brusnwick has a law which specifically permits
fishermen to use the bank of any river or stream in the province. It
was a reaction against the laws in the old country (Great Britain)
which kept the public off riverbanks flowing through private land,
mostly owned by the aristocracy.
I can't see this US jusdgement holding up against popular outrage.
They'll find some way out of the situation. eg pass a new law.
Larry - 15 Sep 2006 23:32 GMT
Don White <whited@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in news:mhBOg.20946$9u.234140
@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
> If this is fact.. you all had better run, not walk, to the nearest
> Canadian Embassy and apply for citizenship. Act now...beat the crowds.
Now, now, Don. You're just trying to expand the Canadian tax base to
reduce your taxes.....(c;

Signature
There's amazing intelligence in the Universe.
You can tell because none of them ever called Earth.
Don White - 16 Sep 2006 00:02 GMT
> Don White <whited@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in news:mhBOg.20946$9u.234140
> @ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Now, now, Don. You're just trying to expand the Canadian tax base to
> reduce your taxes.....(c;
Yeah...forgot to mention. Only those who can afford our taxes need apply.
Larry - 16 Sep 2006 01:13 GMT
Don White <whited@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in news:diGOg.21070$9u.236584
@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
> Yeah...forgot to mention. Only those who can afford our taxes need apply.
Yeah, but we get free doctor visits....eventually.....right??

Signature
There's amazing intelligence in the Universe.
You can tell because none of them ever called Earth.
Don White - 16 Sep 2006 02:30 GMT
> Don White <whited@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in news:diGOg.21070$9u.236584
> @ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
>
>>Yeah...forgot to mention. Only those who can afford our taxes need apply.
>
> Yeah, but we get free doctor visits....eventually.....right??
Sure do... if you can find a family doctor who doesn't feel overburdened
by his practice and will accept new patients.
Matt Colie - 15 Sep 2006 22:36 GMT
Well,
You better believe it....
Here in Michigan we are stil fighting to get to back the essential right
to have crew change headsails underway. It seems the "No Bow Riding"
statute was so badly written as to prohibit tending headsails or
anchoring.
I used to own one and a half acres of Lake Erie bottom. The land's
title specifically stated that though I had title to the property that
was below the mean high water level as established (it was specific), I
could not impede navigation or the basic riperian rights on said waters.
Here on the lakes most titles are like this.
Matt Colie
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Brian Nystrom - 15 Sep 2006 22:39 GMT
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
Peering into my crystal ball, I see a major slap up aside the head from
an appeals court judge in Judge James' near future...
Schöön Martin - 18 Sep 2006 07:57 GMT
> You better read this. Everyone here is about to be guilty of a criminal act
> if we put out boats in the water!
>
> http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html
"US federal judge declares boating illegal in all US navigable waters"
Well, I don't live in the US so "Everyone" is a bit of an exageration.
--
Martin Schöön <martin.schoon@gmail.com>
"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein
Larry - 18 Sep 2006 14:52 GMT
> Well, I don't live in the US so "Everyone" is a bit of an exageration.
Martin, please kiss the first beautiful Swedish blonde you see after
reading this and tell her we Americans love Swedish blondes.....
Thanks!