 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsBoatsPaddle BoatsSailingCruisingBuildingElectronics Related Topics CarsMotorcyclesMore Topics ... |
Boat Forum / Building / July 2007ready to put some boat on my boat
So I have posted here in the past about my outrigger sailing canoe project but have not had much time to post progress updates. First, we are going with 27' long. The plans use this as the example of measurements for stretching the hull so the math is much easier plus my brother just went out and bought a Rinker 250 (25') and put a 2 foot swim step on it so I'll burn in a fiery pit of hell before I let him beat me. Not to mention that 27' will be good for 4 people to sail aboard and not loose much performance. It is a canoe after all and is about 1.5' wide in the main hull. I think it will sail best with two to three people and I want, just once, to get 25kts. Second, we got the mold stations up and perfectly straight. It took a little time here because we didn't want a crooked boat, but you could calibrate a laser to this thing. We got the lumber for the hull and have been milling like there is no tomorrow. We are using Redwood with Mahogany accent strips at the waterline. Right now we have enough to do about 9 vertical inches of the hull. We need to cut a lot more. This week I am going to pick up the bamboo which will be used for the mast and a few supports on the akas. Next weekend we are planning to get the strips we milled on the molds and probably mill a bunch more after that. We have a long way to go still but I think we are making pretty good progress considering our limited time and experience. It looks a little daunting to see the molds up there. It is really big for such a small boat and everyone says wow that's a lot longer than I thought it would be. I think when I drop in the ocean and start heading for Catalina or San Diego I wont think it's so big anymore. Bill >So I have posted here in the past about my outrigger sailing canoe >project but have not had much time to post progress updates. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Bill You know? I'd have another think about using bamboo for a mast. Bamboo is a funny material as even though thoroughly cured it still warps easily. In addition there are many different types of bamboo - I'm not a specialist in bamboo but living in Thailand I do come in contact with it and it is far less rigid then I had once thought. If you are building a 27 ft. boat you must be thinking about a mast of about the same length and I would have grave doubts that a single stick of bamboo is going to be stiff enough. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 18:54:40 -0700, Bill > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I'm treating the bamboo with epoxy on the inside and glassing the outside. It wont absorb any water and it wont split plus the 10oz. glass will help to make it a little stiffer and increase the strength of the material. Bamboo is really strong stuff so I am pretty confident. I am getting two just in case one breaks and it is fairly inexpensive material. If it doesn't work I can make a new mast out of solid wood. >> <williamdochn...@adelphia.net> wrote: >> >So I have posted here in the past about my outrigger sailing canoe [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >inexpensive material. If it doesn't work I can make a new mast out of >solid wood. Well, it is your boat of course. But, do give some thought to the reasons why people living in bamboo growing areas do not, as a rule, use bamboo as mast material even though they may well use it as battens in junk type sails. How are you planning on treating the bamboo , on the inside, with epoxy? Drilling a hole in each section and pour in epoxy, slosh it around and pour it out? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Well, it is your boat of course. But, do give some thought to the > reasons why people living in bamboo growing areas do not, as a rule, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Bruce in Bangkok > (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) Exactly...bamboo is a great and stong material , temporarily. Great to roast your sticky rice in, but as a boat building material..... why would anyone consider using it ? ...Ken > > Well, it is your boat of course. But, do give some thought to the > > reasons why people living in bamboo growing areas do not, as a rule, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > ...Ken actually it is used in boat building just not by rich folks; my time in SE aisa was spent looking at boats made of bamboo either bundeled or single lashed boats. these are all small water craft that see use and repair often. the stuff is just not used long term. OTH treated bamboo seems like a really good idea since the thing makeing it unsuitable for boat building is it's splitting. IMO glassed and internaly coated would work well. sorry folks i have built several commercial fishing boats and have almost always tried to figure a way to use bamboo. [bamboo] >actually it is used in boat building just not by rich folks; my time >in SE aisa was spent looking at boats made of bamboo either bundeled [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >commercial fishing boats and have almost always tried to figure a way >to use bamboo. Which reminds me: a century ago, one of the earliest flying machines was made of bamboo. Brian Whatcott Altus OK >> > Well, it is your boat of course. But, do give some thought to the >> > reasons why people living in bamboo growing areas do not, as a rule, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >commercial fishing boats and have almost always tried to figure a way >to use bamboo. Well, I've lived in SE Asia for 30 years and I haven't seen bamboo used to build boats. What I have seen is bamboo used to build rafts by lashing bundles of bamboo together -- by people too poor to be able to afford wooden boats. I have also seen it used to make battens for junk type sails where it lasted about one year. I did ask the blokes running the junk "why bamboo" and they answered "cheap". Probably some of the last commercial sailing boats were the Bugis schooners from S. Sulawasi that didn't use bamboo to build their boats. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:00:07 -0000, Two meter troll > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com modern: http://www.bambooboats.com/prototype.html traditional: http://www.bamboocraft.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=3043 http://www.vietnamboats.org/bambooboats.htm > > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:00:07 -0000, Two meter troll > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > http://www.vietnamboats.org/bambooboats.htm sorry i forgot a couple: http://www.acclaimimages.com/search_terms/bamboo_boat.html http://www.asiacard.co.uk/ecard929.html >> > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:00:07 -0000, Two meter troll >> [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >http://www.acclaimimages.com/search_terms/bamboo_boat.html These are woven boats, I believe from Vietnam. When I was in Nha Trang I saw some of the bowl shaped boats but the majority of the fishing boats I saw were wooden. >http://www.asiacard.co.uk/ecard929.html As I said a bunch of bamboo bundled into a raft.... As I said, "What I have seen is bamboo used to build rafts by lashing bundles of bamboo together -- by people too poor to be able to afford wooden boats." You have showed me pictures of a number of rafts made by tying bamboo stalks together and a few pictures of woven bamboo boats which appear to be solely used in Vietnam and I would guess by people too poor to have a wooden boat. Still doesn;t make bamboo a good boat building material. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com http://www.jmbamboo.com/boats.htm http://www.skillsusa.org/champions/2006_Summer/Images/boat1_Big.jpg http://www.pbs.org/wayfinders/polynesian8.html http://borobudurshipexpedition.com/leg02-report.htm None of these are rafts. >>> > Probably some of the last commercial sailing boats were the Bugis >>> > schooners from S. Sulawasi that didn't use bamboo to build their >>> > boats. A good place to see a large number of Bugis built traditional schooners is in Surabaya city on the east end of Java, just prior to the shift in winds to return them to Sulawasi. > Still doesn;t make bamboo a good boat building material. I have neve used bamboo on the water, but I did build a traditional bamboo house years ago and watched the structual integrity of the bamboo break down over a few years. I should add that this was a stilt house with ample air circulation with a dry climate for at least 6 months of the year. Best thing about a bamboo house is that you get a nice, new fresh house every few years. However, if someone is quite determined to use bamboo research into the numerous varieties of bamboo. There is one bamboo in Thailand, that is solid and used often for tool handles such as a garden hoe handle. Bruce, this is the bamboo that has the very sharp thorns, would know the scientific name ? ...Ken > Bruce in Bangkok > (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) > >>> > Probably some of the last commercial sailing boats were the Bugis > >>> > schooners from S. Sulawasi that didn't use bamboo to build their [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Was the bamboo treated in any way? How many years did it last. I am planning to get two poles and treating two masts. The idea is that if I get five years per mast then I have a good inexpensive beautiful lightweight mast that will go ten years. Thats not too bad for a $100 and a little build time. If they last 10 years each I will be extremely happy. I plan to treat them and plug the ends so that the inside wont get wet at all even with the epoxy coating. I also will take the seecond mast the first few sails and the first few long sails just in case I push too hard or just screw up and break a mast. I really want to use bamboo for the look and weight. >> I have neve used bamboo on the water, but I did build a traditional >> bamboo [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> few >> years. >> - Show quoted text - > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > just in case I push too hard or just screw up and break a mast. I > really want to use bamboo for the look and weight. Not treated at all and the bamboo houses last maybe 3 years depending on insects and the wet periods. Best of luck to you. ...Ken >>>> > Probably some of the last commercial sailing boats were the Bugis >>>> > schooners from S. Sulawasi that didn't use bamboo to build their [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> Bruce in Bangkok >> (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) I can't give you the scientific name but in Thai it is pietan (probably a lousy phonetic translation and mispelled to boot). The Thai word translates to pie (bamboo) solid (tan). I'm not sure how many Bugis sailing schooners there are left. Ten years, or so, ago I was building a small gas refinery in Central Java and had several commissioning engineers over from the States. As we lived in a little Chinese hotel and ate Indonesian food I tried to take everybody to the closest town, Cirebon, every Sunday to get a western meal and do some shopping. Since the guys were all homesick for America I used to try and show them "the sights" to take their minds off being thousands of miles from home. One Sunday I took them down to the harbor to show them the Bugis boats. On the way I gave them a real pep talk about these being the last commercial sailing boats; been building them since the Portuguese days, bla, bla. When we finally got there were Bugis boats in droves -- and not a single one had a mast. Apparently the Bugis have discovered the internal combustion engine and taken it to heart. The boats look the same, except for the lack of a mast, but they all have a big diesel mounted on the side with a long shaft like a Thai long tail boat. Still got the steering oars though. More about Bamboo. Some years back there were a number of commercial buildings, mainly in the countryside, that used bamboo in place of re-bar. My brother in law build a small warehouse using it. The warehouse is still standing and in use today but whether that is because bamboo makes good re-bar or blind luck I cannot say. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > More about Bamboo. Some years back there were a number of commercial > buildings, mainly in the countryside, that used bamboo in place of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Bruce in Bangkok > (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) More FWIW stuff? Thomas A Edison's swimming pool was made the same way - using bamboo for re-bar. Still water tight. Whether that is because bamboo makes good re-bar or blind luck I cannot say. Richard >> <eawis...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> "Bruce" <brucepa...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > >http://www.bambooboats.com/prototype.html This looks like bamboo covered with some form of goop. I've seen the same thing done with PVC pipe. >traditional: > >http://www.bamboocraft.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=3043 Exactly what I described - poor folks, a bundle of poles lashed together and next your you get to build another one. >http://www.vietnamboats.org/bambooboats.htm Pictures too small to view but one boat looks like the"basket boats" I saw in Nha Trang Vietnam. Again, a new boat every year. But the fact that you can do something does not mean that it is the best way to do something. If the vast majority of boat builders in countries where bamboo grows do not use it to build boats then a canny bloke would, perhaps, begin to wonder why not? As I mentioned above, the Bugis, who have been building wooden commercial sailing vessels for at least 400 years do not use bamboo in any meaningful way. Is there a reason why? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:12:06 -0700, Bill > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Cut it in half, clean it out and coat with epoxy. Then epoxy the two halves back together and put a biaxial fiberglass tube over the outside. Resin sand varnish. Bamboo has been used in boat building for a really long time. > > On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 18:54:40 -0700, Bill > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > I'm treating the bamboo with epoxy on the inside and glassing the > outside. It wont absorb any water Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water resistant yes, proof, no. > and it wont split plus the 10oz. > glass will help to make it a little stiffer and increase the strength > of the material. Bamboo is really strong stuff so I am pretty > confident. I am getting two just in case one breaks and it is fairly > inexpensive material. If it doesn't work I can make a new mast out of > solid wood. Keep your solid wood handy ;) - Hide quoted text - > - Show quoted text - > Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water > resistant yes, proof, no. I'm not leaving it in the water. It is going to be stored on land. Both ends swill be plugged. You can argue the ideal possibilities all day but its basically doing a wood/fiberglass composite structure using bamboo. Bamboo is a very strong natural structure and I am using a pole much wider than recommended to increase strength even more. You and Bruce don't have to sail on it. I need it light weight to go faster and get better handling characterisitcs. Why do you care so much? Have you ever tried it? Are you invested in my project in some way? Why not just say 'good luck and let me know if it works out'? > > Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water > > resistant yes, proof, no. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > some way? Why not just say 'good luck and let me know if it works > out'? Well, sorry you are so defensive. The reason I care is this is a builders group, and I am a builder. You came here for help (unless you are just dreaming and bragging) and I thought I was helping. Screw you though, I won't make that mistake again. I can't imagine coming to someone for help, then turning into an ahole when you hear something you don't want to hear or address, but that's just me. On Jul 5, 2:55 pm, justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water > > > resistant yes, proof, no. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > someone for help, then turning into an ahole when you hear something > you don't want to hear or address, but that's just me. And don't bother, I won't be returning to this thread. So just keep your dream going, hope it works out well for you. > Well, sorry you are so defensive. The reason I care is this is a > builders group, and I am a builder. You came here for help (unless you > are just dreaming and bragging) and I thought I was helping. Screw you > though, I won't make that mistake again. I can't imagine coming to > someone for help, then turning into an ahole when you hear something > you don't want to hear or address, but that's just me. I posted an update of my build for all the people that might be interested and I immediately get replies of 'why would you do that, that wont ever work and it's not a good idea' from people that have never tried it before. The responses I got from you and Bruce were very harsh and from people that have not even stated any experience with this material. In my experience when two people interested in building something are talking a project it is more constructive than that. You ask questions if you don't know and make polite suggestions, you don't say things like it could never be a permanent solution, if you haven't tried it. You don't jump all over someone that has been planning or many months after thingkin about it for five minutes. Sorry if I seem a bit defensive but I came here to share and post a little something to an otherwise low active group and I get attacked by several people that think they know everything. Next time you try to help someone maybe you could be polite about it. That goes for Bruce even more, just because you never did it doesn't mean it can't be done. >> Well, sorry you are so defensive. The reason I care is this is a >> builders group, and I am a builder. You came here for help (unless you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >for Bruce even more, just because you never did it doesn't mean it >can't be done. I rather resent your statement "from people that have never tried it before" as I've been building boats since I was 12 years old - more then sixty years ago and I have attempted to use bamboo for a number of purposes ranging from masts to handles for boat hooks and found that contrary to appearances it was never as effective as some other common material. I might also mention that I am a mechanical engineer so I do have some familiarity with strengths of various materials. I believe I stated that it is your boat, with the implication that you could and would do as you wanted. So, enlighten me. Would you suggest I do the next time someone starts to explain how they are going to go to something that I have tried and found to be a totally unsatisfactory solution to the problem? Should I walk away snickering under my breath, "friggin idjet" or should I try to tell the guy that it might not work. You tell me that you are going to buy a piece of bamboo (that if you do not store very carefully will warp like crazy) split it lengthwise and carve out the webs; paint it with epoxy; glue it back together and then sheath it with 200 oz. glass; and that you have been thinking about this for years -- have you ever given thought to the fact that if you were to build a foam cored ,glass coated mast, similar to those used on wind surfers it would be (1) stronger and (2) easier to build? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > So, enlighten me. Would you suggest I do the next time someone starts > to explain how they are going to go to something that I have tried and > found to be a totally unsatisfactory solution to the problem? Should I > walk away snickering under my breath, "friggin idjet" or should I try > to tell the guy that it might not work. > - Show quoted text - Sorry, had to revisit this question. You do what you did, and if it does not work out, you move on and help the next guy. I should have just laid back, sorry to the group, later, going fishing early morning. > On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:20:39 -0700, Bill > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Bruce, I didn't know you had done it but I got the impression that you were another usenet idiot that likes to tell people what to do without having ever tried it since you didn't state that you have done this before. I didn't mean to offend you but posting to newsgroups in the past has occasionally brought these people to me and it really bothers me.I apologize if that is not you or your intention. As for the thought of a foam cored fiberglass mast, yes I have thought of it along with aluminum but ultimately I want the boat to be all wood and rope appearance, as much as possible. I know treating the bamboo is more work but I am doing a lot of things that are more work just to get the boat I really want. I am planning on making my own rope stropped blocks as well. They will be bigger and take a lot more time but I think it will give a better appearance. The sheaves will be bronze but little else will be made of anything other than wood, rope or clear fiberglass. Maybe this will clear things up and bring the peace back to RBB. Bill >> <williamdochn...@adelphia.net> wrote: >> >> Well, sorry you are so defensive. The reason I care is this is a [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > >Bill Re Rope stropped blocks: I'm not being sarcastic here but if you are really capable of building authentic rope stropped blocks with decent bearings then, for God's sake, slip an advertisement into "Wooden Boat", or one of the other vintage boat magazines as real authentic wooden blocks command a very good price. In fact there was an article in "Practical Boat,Owner", a British boating magazine, some years back about a chap that was building a wood boat and couldn't locate any authentic wooden blocks so started making some. He soon found that he could sell every one he could make amd started a one man factory to make them -- the article never said whether he finished his boat or not.... Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:43:30 -0700, Bill > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I have actually thought of that. I wanted to finish my boat first before taking on any extra commitments like that. I also wanted to make them and use them a lot before selling anything to other people. I am sure there will be a little trial and error here. The few places I saw that sold them got very high prices and had long wait times for orders. If mine turn out well enough I may sell a few.......but after I finish the boat. >> <williamdochn...@adelphia.net> wrote: >> >> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:20:39 -0700, Bill [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] >orders. If mine turn out well enough I may sell a few.......but after >I finish the boat. Do a bit of research before you start building blocks. A "proper" wooden block actually has a bearing, some as sophisticated as roller bearings, between the sheave and the pin. By the way, I did a quick Google and a simple stropped block was selling for something like 27 Pounds Sterling PLUS 10 pounds tax. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:43:30 -0700, Bill <williamdochnahl@adelphia.net> wrote stuff and I replied: Political announcement: Top post AND I will remove the last 3 weeks' postings as well: Bill: You are "asking for advice" on a public forum. Not everybody who questions your actions has to have tried it before. Much of the progress of any engineering process relies on the expoerience of many other people, who have tried stuff and documented their failures along with their successes. In turn many others have read of the repeated experience of other people (that's science and its spread) and will pass it on to any person who tried to repeat past failures. Bruce has apparently had direct experience with bamboo. He has also seen bamboo fail when others tried it. Stop clinging to your ideas....no...fine cling as you wish...but do NOT belittle those who have either experenced failure or WITNESSED failure, who are willing to pass that experience on. >Bruce, I didn't know you had done it but I got the impression that you >were another usenet idiot that likes to tell people what to do without [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Bill Human bevaviour: Bestiality with a brain >> Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water >> resistant yes, proof, no. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >some way? Why not just say 'good luck and let me know if it works >out'? As for me, I believe I specifically stated that it was your boat, with the implication that you should do as you want. Have I ever tried it - yes I have attempted to use bamboo for a number of purposes on a boat and it was never as effective as either wood or other materials, to the extent that I always had to replace the bamboo with another material thus causing myself twice the work. As far as saying "good luck and let me know how it works", I always thought it polite when you saw someone peeing to windward to advise them that if they peed downwind they wouldn't get their pant legs wet. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water > resistant yes, proof, no. You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease. I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof, but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is. This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance. It is also the justification of the techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages. SignatureLodewijk On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com schreef innews:1183654068.244779.137140@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof > but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is. I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in lab conditions. Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the most hyped epoxy, let water in. The key however is to engineer with that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than in. > This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on > new polyester boats, for instance. Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to the laminate itself. But I am more of a wooden boat guy. >It is also the justification of the > techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages. God bless the Gougeon Bros indeed, they have moved the process along for sure, but they still sell goo! > -- > Lodewijk Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down yet. Have a great day and go build a boat! >On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > ------------------------------------------- polyester resin (fiberglass resin) is rather porous, which is why many hulls develop blisters. The simple fix is to coat them / waterproof then with a layer of epoxy which is much less porous than polyester resin. is epoxy waterproof. consider your skin. you don't leak when you go swimming (pls don't pee in the pool!) but technically our skin passes lots of fluids. FYI paul oman - progressive epoxy polymers inc > On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in > lab conditions. You may not use it in lab-conditions, but I am sure that you use measured amounts of resin and hardener. Quite a different story from polyester, where the amount of catalyst used is much less critical. > Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the > most hyped epoxy, let water in. If you are that convinced that it lets water in, I wonder why and how you use it al all. > The key however is to engineer with > that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than > in. That is right, of course. Don't use it on wet wood. Preferably, don't use it on massive wood of large sections. >> This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an >> osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance. > > Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats > soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to > the laminate itself. Maybe you have not seen enough polyester boats. Osmosis (blistering of the gelcoat and sometimes of the laminate itself) is a pretty common illness to polyester boats. It does not necessarily mean that a boat is up for the scrapyard, but it scares the hell out of many polyester boat-owners, allright. > But I am more of a wooden boat guy. That figures. > Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down > yet. I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if you're so sure it leaks. > Have a great day and go build a boat! Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not knowledgeable enough. SignatureLodewijk On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com schreef innews:1184169027.954650.61310@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid... > On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> > wrote: >> I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use >> epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're >> not knowledgeable enough. > You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about > me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my > post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of > just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid... There's not all that much content in your post. Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering. I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities. For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't move with it. How do you engineer that? SignatureLodewijk On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com schreef innews:1184186915.563324.307630@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood > and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities. Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood. > For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't > move with it. How do you engineer that? Epoxy moves just fine in joints. In fact it is much more pliable than polyester, please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about boats. > -- > Lodewijk > On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> > wrote: >> There's not all that much content in your post. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a > laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood. Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof. As far as 'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than epoxy. Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time. >> For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy >> won't move with it. How do you engineer that? > > Epoxy moves just fine in joints. It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are relatively small. I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout. Do you build such boats? > In fact it is much more pliable than > polyester, Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility. Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless. Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood. > please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about > boats. Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy... SignatureLodewijk On Jul 11, 5:54 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com schreef innews:1184189078.795247.56890@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what > makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof. I am a boat builder, wooden boats at that. And please read Pauls post above, please. >As far as > 'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than > epoxy. And to suggest I said anything different would be innacurate at best. Although there are many out there I have not used, so I won't guess;) > Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof > than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or > stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time. Waterproof "enough". Now you are starting to understand. But maybe not for the guy who wants to use it to seal a bamboo mast, where is where this discussion started. > >> For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy > >> won't move with it. How do you engineer that? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are > relatively small. Not going to take on this one, I don't have the time or inclination. But trust me, there is much more to that story. >I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last > longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout. Or allow for escape of aquired (not built on wet wood) moisture and finish with something like paint. And if I am understanding your assumptions, encapsulated boats should last forever, and they don't. > Do you build such boats? I do, professionally, have for decades. > > In fact it is much more pliable than > > polyester, > > Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener > you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility. So you are telling me to use the right mixes for the job. ok I will;) > Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless. > Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood. I never said anything like that. I said " I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood". Are you my new troll? Rehtorical question, don't bother. > > please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about > > boats. > > Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy... Well if elaborating on my posts and making up assertions you wish I made is teaching, consider me a disgrunteled student. > -- > Lodewijk Apologies to those who suffered through this all. JW > On Jul 11, 5:54 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> > wrote: >>As far as >> 'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof >> than epoxy. > > And to suggest I said anything different would be innacurate at best. > Although there are many out there I have not used, so I won't guess;) If I remember correctly you were discussing a use of epoxy and glassfiber which, save the use of bamboo, was a perfectly normal method to strengthen and weatherproof a wooden construction. It was silly to state that epoxy is not waterproof in such a context. It's waterproof enough. >> Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof >> than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for the guy who wants to use it to seal a bamboo mast, where is where > this discussion started. Your remark did not specifically relate to the fact that the epoxy was used on bamboo. You simply said: iet's not waterfroof. Thousands of boats have been built using epoxy to prove that epoxy is watertight enough for use on dimensionally stable wood. If the wood had the right moisture content at the start, the boats won't rot from within, so why keep stressing that epoxy is not completely, absolutely waterproof? Fact is that as long as the epoxy or epoxy-and-glass skin is not punctured, those boats have an almost infinite life-span. Water- absorption through an intact epoxy-skin is not a factor. [epoxy used only for gluing] >> It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are >> relatively small. >>I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last >> longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy >> throughout. > > Or allow for escape of aquired (not built on wet wood) moisture and > finish with something like paint. Aquired moisture is a factor in the restoration of boats. New boats should be built of wood with the right moisture content. > And if I am understanding your > assumptions, encapsulated boats should last forever, and they don't. Encapsulating traditionally built (skin-on-frame) boats is a tricky business. Boats that were designed to be built using epoxy can be encapsulated in a reliable way without any difficulty and can last very long. At least as long as any polyester boat en with some care as long as any boat. >> Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless. >> Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood. > > I never said anything like that. I said " I use epoxy as an anhesive > and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood". You at least created the impressing of making that comparison, because your remark on polyester directly followed your remark on epoxy being pretty pliable. SignatureLodewijk >> On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman <ajeevee-ditwegha...@xs4all.nl> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't >move with it. How do you engineer that? Well, I have seen a large number of boats built of wood and epoxy - strip planked, cold molded and duracore composite all come to mind. These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy >>won't move with it. How do you engineer that? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no > problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. You don't have to convince me. I have seen those boats too. And you and I know why these boats have no problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. The moisture content does not change (enough) to crate problems, once the wood is sealed from external moisture. Which seems to prove that epoxy is waterproof enough for this purpose. Practically spoken, epoxy is waterproof. SignatureLodewijk Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! One more point I want to make that might help cool things down a bit..... wood expands and contracts with moisture things like epoxy, fiberglass, paint, and just about all other things, expand and contract with temperature. So - wood and the epoxy on it don't expand and contract together... This can cause some of the issues brought up here. Always best to complete seal the wood with epoxy, not just one side. Also, plywood, because of the way it is made etc. expands and contracts very little (at least compared to 'regular' wood). Also epoxies stick really well to most materials and is often considered sort of a universal primer. polyester resin (fiberglass resin) doesn't bond well (or long) to anything but itself (I and my customers report polyester resin to wood bond failures after a few years maybe 10 years at best). This is why fiberglass boats are generally 100% fiberglass and not half fiberglass and half wood (as might/could be the case with epoxy resin). So.... you can repair fiberglass with epoxy but fixing epoxy with fiberglass resin in not recommend (but many folks do and they get away with it). Epoxy resins just have all around better physical properties than polyester resin, but usually cost more. I vaguely recall seeing water absorption numbers for epoxy at something like 1/10 of a percent. Don't ask me where or how I got that number, just something that is floating adrift in my head. cheers everyone paul oman progressive epoxy polymers > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > >Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >paul oman >progressive epoxy polymers Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} If you were planning on building a composite potable water tank what would you use to line/paint the inside? I have had several boats that had integral tanks. In one case the tank appeared to have been painted inside with polyester resin and a second boat that appeared to have gel coat on the inside. I am considering building a spare water tank out of plywood, lined and taped with glass, and do not have a big selection of epoxy available here. My thoughts were to go ahead and paint it inside with several coats of epoxy, let it cure for several weeks and then flush it with several/many changes of water. If some form of special, "This stuff is for lining water tanks" resin was available I'd use it but as far as I can discover there is nothing like that available in the country. Thanks for any information you can give me. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) > --------------- gel coat is just thickened polyester resin. epoxies tested and approved for potable water (NSF 61 approvals) are generally (always????) test /approved for tanks over 1000 gallons or pipelines over 16 inches dia. Some folks don't worry about it, others do...... paul - progressive epoxy polymers >>Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >paul >- progressive epoxy polymers Thanks, I understand. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! > > One more point I want to make that might help cool things down a bit..... Sorry, I am a nasty guy and I don't like being slandered by some punk kid. > I vaguely recall seeing water absorption numbers for epoxy at something > like 1/10 of a percent. Don't ask me where or how I got that number, > just something that is floating adrift in my head. And that was my simple point. Even in a lab epoxy is not "waterproof", I know it sounds picky with the numbers you stated, but who uses epoxy in lab conditions anyway. And certainly in the use the Origional Poster has in mind it won't be water proof, in fact it may prove detremental by holding aquired moisture (through cracks and osmosis) in. Even if he went to the expence of using the water tank rated stuff you base your numbers on, and certainly not if he uses off the shelf maring epoxy... > cheers everyone Cheers to you too, but the guy owes me an apology. > paul oman > progressive epoxy polymers On Jul 12, 10:33 am, justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com wrote: > Cheers to you too, but the guy owes me an apology. Better yet, just let it die, my feelings will heal;) |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.