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cheap vacuum bagging

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William R. Watt - 18 Oct 2003 15:47 GMT
There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
automobile in his configuration and claims he got 25 psi vacuum for his
project. He just used standard plumbing fittings to connect the vacuum bag.

I do not have the website address. I was browsing on a computer at the
public library at the time and did  not write it down. However you can
find it by going to www.boat-links.com, clicking on "The Mother of All
Boat Links", clicking on the first box "amateur boatbuildign and repair"
and scrolling down untill you find the link about vacuum bagging.

Nowadays all discarded 'fridges go to a recyling depot where they "vacuum
bag" the freon gas to protect the ozone layer of the atmosphere. It should
be easy to get a compressor by telephoning the miniciapl garbage
department. Since compressors do wear out it would be a good idea to look
for ones off later model 'fridges (the date of manufacure should be on a
label on the 'fridge)  bring home 2 or 3 to try.

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sour (max camirand) - 20 Oct 2003 00:23 GMT
>There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
>for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
>automobile in his configuration and claims he got 25 psi vacuum for his
>project. He just used standard plumbing fittings to connect the vacuum bag.

I remember reading about this, too. Seems very feasible. If I ever
have any vacuum bagging to do, I'll give it a shot.

Has anyone tried it?

-m
Brian Whatcott - 20 Oct 2003 04:48 GMT
>>There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
>>for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>-m

Fridge compressors blow out their oil then seize up in 1 to 10 hours,
in
my experience. If you trap the oil, or keep adding it, I hear you can
keep 'em running.

Brian Whatcott
Glenn Ashmore - 20 Oct 2003 12:57 GMT
If you can find an old, and I mean REALLY old, compressor with single
intake and output ports and maybe cooling fins it will last an
acceptable time but anything built after they changed from latches to
magnetic sealing strips will crap out very quickly.

> There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
> for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm 
> warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

James Johnson - 23 Oct 2003 01:31 GMT
>If you can find an old, and I mean REALLY old, compressor with single
>intake and output ports and maybe cooling fins it will last an
>acceptable time but anything built after they changed from latches to
>magnetic sealing strips will crap out very quickly.

Maybe he means 25 inches of vacuum, now is it inches of water or mercury (big
difference between the two)?  Since atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7
psi there is know way he is pulling 25 psi vacuum unless he has it in a tank
pressurized to 10 psi above atmospheric.

JJ

>> There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
>> for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>> homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm 
>> warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

James Johnson
remove the "dot" from after sail in email address to reply
William R. Watt - 23 Oct 2003 14:40 GMT
> Maybe he means 25 inches of vacuum, now is it inches of water or mercury (big
> difference between the two)?  Since atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7
> psi there is know way he is pulling 25 psi vacuum unless he has it in a tank
> pressurized to 10 psi above atmospheric.

yes, that would 25 inches of mercury. that is what is measured by the car
engine vacuum guage. if you car engine vacuum guage is 14.7 you have some
expensive engine work in your immediate future.

still the vacuum on the suction side of a vacuum pump is not limited by
atmospheric pressure, even when connected to a vacuum bag set up for resin
curing. all it means is the pump is creating a vacuum greater than
atmospheric pressure and could be run at a lower speed. imagine a vacuum
pump strong enough to suck the resin, hull, and all right into the pump.
can't do that at atmopheric prssure.

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Glenn Ashmore - 23 Oct 2003 15:23 GMT
> still the vacuum on the suction side of a vacuum pump is not limited by
> atmospheric pressure, even when connected to a vacuum bag set up for resin
> curing. all it means is the pump is creating a vacuum greater than
> atmospheric pressure and could be run at a lower speed. imagine a vacuum
> pump strong enough to suck the resin, hull, and all right into the pump.
> can't do that at atmopheric prssure.

That is why a lot of carbon spars are vacuum bagged inside a
pressureized and heated autoclave.  Supprising how much you can squish a
carbon fiber layup at 100 psi.  :-)

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
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Keith Hughes - 23 Oct 2003 16:44 GMT
> still the vacuum on the suction side of a vacuum pump is not limited by
> atmospheric pressure, even when connected to a vacuum bag set up for resin
> curing.

Well, actually it *is* limited by atmospheric pressure unless you
have the bag in a pressurized environment. Evacuate the bag to 0
psia/bara/mm hg/pa/torr/microns (whatever absolute units you want
to use) and the pressure differential between the bag interior and
exterior is simply the ambient pressure. In open air, that's
atmospheric pressure.

> all it means is the pump is creating a vacuum greater than
> atmospheric pressure and could be run at a lower speed. imagine a vacuum
> pump strong enough to suck the resin, hull, and all right into the pump.

Imagine is all you *can* do unless you find an alternate motive
force besides the atmospheric pressure. Sans such motive force
(e.g. pressurized chamber), 14.7 psia is all you have to work
with, on a good day (well, you *do* have bag mass and acceleration
due to gravity, but that works for you on the top side, and
against you on the "bottom" side).

> can't do that at atmopheric prssure.

Exactly.

Keith Hughes
Terry Spragg - 31 Oct 2003 06:41 GMT
 

> > Maybe he means 25 inches of vacuum, now is it inches of water or mercury (big
> > difference between the two)?  Since atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> pump strong enough to suck the resin, hull, and all right into the pump.
> can't do that at atmopheric prssure.

> William R Watt    

Can't do that with even a perfect vacuum.  All you get is one
atmosphere of 'suction', which cannot ever actually exist in a
pneumatic system.  Now, an hydraulic system, where the pump
evacuates a liquid, can pull harder than an air pump, up to the
point where the liquid boils, providing there is not one tiny bit
of gas in the system, which would cause the vacuum 'suction' to
max out at less than one atmosphere. No such system is possible.

In a mercury tube barometer, a little dissolved gas released by
the vacuum from it's imprisonment as a solute in the mercury, if
there is any fills the 31" space at the top of the tube at some
low pressure, low enough that the barometeric pressure outside
the tube presses hard enough to suspend the mercury.

So,  pressure forming is used in applications where more than one
atmosphere of 'squish' is required. Explosive pressure forming
can provide hundreds of atmospheres of 'squish.'

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hugh - 20 Oct 2003 13:29 GMT
> There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
> for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
> automobile in his configuration and claims he got 25 psi vacuum for his
> project. He just used standard plumbing fittings to connect the vacuum bag.

hahaha.. good one.   he claims he got 25 psi vacuum.....

do not pass go, do not collect $200.  go to jail.

hugh

p.s. my old engineering profs would fail you the whole year for saying
somthing like that in any individual exam....
Glenn Ashmore - 20 Oct 2003 13:37 GMT
I see that mistake so often that I just automatically think inches Hg.
Any decent vacuum pump should be able to reach 25 to 28" Hg in a really
well sealed bag but a perfect seal is very hard to get.  While
laminating plywood requires as much vacuum as you can get most glass
bagging is done below 15" so pump volume is usually a lot more important
than ultimate pressure.

>>There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
>>for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> p.s. my old engineering profs would fail you the whole year for saying
> somthing like that in any individual exam....

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

hugh - 20 Oct 2003 13:57 GMT
> I see that mistake so often that I just automatically think inches Hg.
> Any decent vacuum pump should be able to reach 25 to 28" Hg in a really
> well sealed bag but a perfect seal is very hard to get.  While
> laminating plywood requires as much vacuum as you can get most glass
> bagging is done below 15" so pump volume is usually a lot more important
> than ultimate pressure.

true.  the mercury thing can confuse people.  i'm living in SI-land so a
unit like psi is already wierd enough.  if you started talking about inches
of mercury here people would start looking up the address and phone number
of the nearest loony-bin.  'twould be like using a unit like a furlong per
fortnight or a slug/acre or something.... just unbelievably arcane and
difficult.  ah well.  us SI people owe the french for something....

still, every time i see that mistake i laugh because our engineering profs
did have a habit of trying it out on students and if you went for it you
were in BIG trouble.

hugh

p.s. i also always wonder if maybe people are vacuum bagging composites on
venus or half way down the atmosphere of jupiter.
Ron Thornton - 20 Oct 2003 14:18 GMT
Hugh,

How about laughing to yourself next time and explain to the guys that
didn't go to engineering school why it's wrong.  No need to be rude.

Regards, Ron
Glenn Ashmore - 20 Oct 2003 15:18 GMT
Standard atmospheric pressure is a bit over 14 PSI so that is as much
pressure as a vacuum can produce.  The first proven vacuum was produced
by Evalgelista Torricelli, Galileo's assistant, by filling a glass tube
with mercury and turning it upside down.  The mercury dropped until the
weight of the mercury in the tube equalled the pressure of the air
outside.  That was about 30".  Torricelli almost got in a lot of trouble
about this because the Pope had decreed that there was no such thing as
a vacuum so he sent the idea to a Frenchman named Pascal to work on. For
many years we have happily used the height of the mercury to describe a
vacuum.  We and the English used inches and everyone else used
milimeters.  Then the French and Itallians conspired to change
everything at an international standards conference and we ended up with
Torr as the official measure.  Being Itallian the unit had to be totally
irrational so a Torr is 1/760th of an atmosphere.

To add to the confusion the "Bar", (short for barometer) was used to
describe one standard unit of atmospheric pressure so vacuums are
measured in fractions of a bar called millibars.  Also the French did
not like for an Itallian to get any credit so in an evil pact with the
British, they came up with the Pascal to describe one atmosphere of
pressure. To get the British to go along the Pascal was based on a unit
named after an Englishman, the Newton, but to keep the English in their
proper place they made the Pascal equal to a million Newtons.

The thing is, the measurement of "standard Atomspheric pressure" that
they used to set the actual values was off a bit so all of these units
are not quite accurate.  That is why I still use inches of Mercury.  :-)

> Hugh,
>
> How about laughing to yourself next time and explain to the guys that
> didn't go to engineering school why it's wrong.  No need to be rude.
>
> Regards, Ron

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
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Fred Williams - 20 Oct 2003 16:17 GMT
Thanks Glenn,

I already knew, but obviously others did not.

I have never ever seen Glenn intentionally post anything in the least bit
"rude."  Unfortunately others would most likely not say the same for me :-)

Fred

> Standard atmospheric pressure is a bit over 14 PSI so that is as much
> pressure as a vacuum can produce.  The first proven vacuum was produced
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> >
> > Regards, Ron
hugh - 20 Oct 2003 16:02 GMT
let's see.  vacuum is an absence of atmosphere, or a presence of nothing but
room for there to be something.  the earth's atmosphere applies a pressure
of approx 14.5 psi at sea level, with the pressure varying a little
depending on the weather.   thus, an absolute vacuum has approx 14.5psi less
pressure than one feels at the surface of the earth.  a vacuum bag with zero
pressure inside is 14.5psi lower than outside.  thus it is impossible - in
earth terms at least - to talk of 25psi of vacuum.  if one lived on jupiter,
one could talk about 25psi of vacuum and if the guy with the claim lives on
jupiter and is making composites there then i'll stop laughing and be
amazed.

as for laughing, the reason the engineering school profs got so upset with
this mistake is that they regarded it as something fundamental that should
have been learned at high school.  so do i.  it's kinda like wandering
around the world without knowing that light travels faster than sound or
that shakespeare was english.  you know - basic stuff.

hugh

p.s. and i wasn't rude.  i was laughing.

> Hugh,
>
> How about laughing to yourself next time and explain to the guys that
> didn't go to engineering school why it's wrong.  No need to be rude.
>
> Regards, Ron
Glenn Ashmore - 20 Oct 2003 16:42 GMT
> if one lived on jupiter,
> one could talk about 25psi of vacuum and if the guy with the claim lives on
> jupiter and is making composites there then i'll stop laughing and be
> amazed.

I would think that post curing would be a lot easier on Jupiter.  :-)

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

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there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
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William R. Watt - 20 Oct 2003 19:34 GMT
From what GA wrote it would be better to look for an older unit than a
later one as I assumed. It could be tested with a car vacuum guage. A
vaccum guage costs about $15 at Canadian Tire. I found one at a garage
sale last summer for $4 which included a timing light and a remote starter
switch.

As for burnout maybe the compressor doesn't have to run at full power.
Perhaps a light dimmer switch could be used to set it at the speed needed
to maintain the vacuum for the particular application. Or 2-3 compressors
could be hooked up together and run at lower power off the same dimmer switch.

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Glenn Ashmore - 20 Oct 2003 20:07 GMT
The problem is lubrication.  Refrigerators circulate oil with the
refrigerant to keep the compressor lubricated.  When you use it as a
vacuum pump there is no oil.  You can extend the life a little by
squirting a little WD40 in the intake before each session but that is of
limited value when the compressor runs 4 or 5 hours at a time.

I suspect that the older compressors last longer because they are built
"looser".  As refrigerators got more energy efficient the compressors
have been built to closer and closer tolerances so constant lubrication
became more critical.

I made a high vacuum system back in science fair days out of an old
pre-WWII Kenvinator compressor and used it for several projects.  When I
started doing woodwork I used it to bag veneers for several years.  When
it finally died I tried several newer compressors but none lasted more
than a couple of sessions.  They would run for 10 or 15 minutes and then
the thermal switch would kick them off.  Ruined a lot of expensive
veneer trying to figure a way to keep them running.

There are at least 50 vacuum pumps on eBay right now that would be ideal
for vacuum bagging.  All under $100 and many under $50.  Not a bad price
considering that if a refrigerator compressor craps out in the middle of
a session you could ruin that much material or more.

Here are a few that would work.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2564347665&category=11773
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2565296695&category=26236
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2565655677&category=26236
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2565224361&category=46547
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2565827452&category=46548
Here is a perfect setup complete with flow guages and tank:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2565484267&category=7321

> From what GA wrote it would be better to look for an older unit than a
> later one as I assumed. It could be tested with a car vacuum guage. A
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm 
> warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Ron Thornton - 21 Oct 2003 01:33 GMT
The other problem is cooling.  The freon and oil charge carry heat away
from the compressor which is probably why Glenn's tripped the thermal
switch.  Before I got a "real" vacuum pump I used refrigeration
compressors successfully by cooling with a fan and constantly
lubricating thru a bleeder on the vacuum side with one of those air line
oilers made for lubing air tools.  WD40 is not a very good lubricant for
this, I used light oil and sometimes even thinned motor oil with
kerosine.  I also had an old airbrake compressor off a bus that I drove
with a 1 hp electric motor.  I spite of the physics, I believe I could
have pulled 25 psi with it (maybe thru a worm hole from Jupiter).  On
the output side she would put out 300 psi.  All of this was back when
vacuum pumps were a lot more than $50 on Ebay.

Regards, Ron

PS.  Fred,  re-read my earlier post please.        You will find it was
not directed                  at Glenn.
William R. Watt - 21 Oct 2003 02:44 GMT
>...  I spite of the physics, I believe I could
> have pulled 25 psi with it (maybe thru a worm hole from Jupiter).  On
> the output side she would put out 300 psi.  All of this was back when
> vacuum pumps were a lot more than $50 on Ebay.

another PSI supporter, "Pressure Scale Inches" (of mercury).
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Glenn Ashmore - 21 Oct 2003 02:54 GMT
>>...  I spite of the physics, I believe I could
>>have pulled 25 psi with it (maybe thru a worm hole from Jupiter).  On
>>the output side she would put out 300 psi.  All of this was back when
>>vacuum pumps were a lot more than $50 on Ebay.
>
> another PSI supporter, "Pressure Scale Inches" (of mercury).

Oh, NO! Not another measure!  We have enough already! ;-)

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
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Matt/Meribeth  Pedersen - 21 Oct 2003 04:27 GMT
> Oh, NO! Not another measure!  We have enough already! ;-)

Yes, but how many barnyard atmospheres would that be?

(both are recognized as official measurements)
William R. Watt - 21 Oct 2003 15:35 GMT
>> Oh, NO! Not another measure!  We have enough already! ;-)
>
> Yes, but how many barnyard atmospheres would that be?
>
> (both are recognized as official measurements)

the barnyard atmosphere on my grandfather's farm was usually pretty high
due to a combination of barnyard manure and barnyard language
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hugh - 21 Oct 2003 09:06 GMT
> I spite of the physics, I believe I could
> have pulled 25 psi with it (maybe thru a worm hole from Jupiter).

no ron, you couldn't pull 25psi with it, no matter what you believe.  the
amount it put out on the high pressure side won't help you there.

hugh

p.s. having worked on a bunch of different projects over the years i'm
surprised to see people going to so much trouble trying to make - as they
say - a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  experience has told me many times
(and keeps doing so whenever i try to cheat it) that the cheapest way of
doing something is to buy the right equipment for the job rather than trying
to "make do" with something else.  as glenn already said, it's also a good
way to ruin a lot of expensive materials.
Brian Nystrom - 21 Oct 2003 11:39 GMT
> The problem is lubrication.  Refrigerators circulate oil with the
> refrigerant to keep the compressor lubricated.  When you use it as a
> vacuum pump there is no oil.  You can extend the life a little by
> squirting a little WD40 in the intake before each session but that is
> of limited value when the compressor runs 4 or 5 hours at a time.

If you're using WD-40 as a lubricant, that's a major part of the
problem. WD-40 is a good water-displacer, but its performance as a
lubricant is abysmal. From perusing the sites for DIY vacuum systems, it
appears that the preferred lubricant for refrigeration pumps is ATF
(automatic transmission fluid). All things considered, $50 or so for a
Gast vacuum pump on Ebay seems like a better way to go.

Signature

Regards

Brian

William R. Watt - 20 Oct 2003 14:04 GMT
> claims he got 25 psi vacuum for his

right. change "psi" to "lb".
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jcassara - 21 Oct 2003 12:49 GMT
Check out Harbor Freight. They sell a vacuum pump driven off
an air compressor for about $10.  It is probably listed on
the web site as an automotive A/C part. I was in one of
their stores, it is packaged as an A/C evacuation pump.

John

> > claims he got 25 psi vacuum for his
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
> warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned
Glenn Ashmore - 21 Oct 2003 13:47 GMT
Those will work on a small bag for a few short sessions but they are
hard on a small air compressor when you need to hold a vacuum for
several hours.  You would need to add a resin trap, tank, check valve,
solenoid and vacuum switch to save the compressor.

> Check out Harbor Freight. They sell a vacuum pump driven off
> an air compressor for about $10.  It is probably listed on
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> or it's returned

Signature

Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
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Ed Askew - 22 Oct 2003 07:55 GMT
I just use 2 shop vacuums.  Actually, one is a vacuum cleaner for
cleaning out pellet stoves.  I've done small things with just one
regular shop vac I bought at Wal-Mart.  The thing is to get a good
seal from your bag.  You need lots of duct tape.

Ed.

> There is a website describing how to use a discarded 'fridge compressor
> for vacuum bagging. The fellow who tried it used a vaccum gauge from an
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> for ones off later model 'fridges (the date of manufacure should be on a
> label on the 'fridge)  bring home 2 or 3 to try.
Jim Conlin - 22 Oct 2003 15:04 GMT
The motors of most shop vacuums are cooled by the air that flows through the vacuum parts.  If there's no
flow of air through the hose, there's none through the motor and the motors burn out quickly.   A very few
shop vacuums (Fein and ?) have 'bypass' fans which cool the motor even if there's no flow through the hose.

> I just use 2 shop vacuums.  Actually, one is a vacuum cleaner for
> cleaning out pellet stoves.  I've done small things with just one
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > for ones off later model 'fridges (the date of manufacure should be on a
> > label on the 'fridge)  bring home 2 or 3 to try.
Ed Askew - 23 Oct 2003 08:16 GMT
I've done it several times, and so have a lot of other guys.  Mine
don't overheat.  They're not even all that warm.  I worried about that
the first couple of times I did it.  (I've used 2 different vacuum
cleaners.) I've never heard of anyone's overheating while vacuum
bagging.  There's quite of bit of air moving out of the vacuum cleaner
exhaust while they're on.  I leave them on about 6 hours.  Some guys
leave them on all night.  How are people vacuum bagging without using
vacuum cleaners?

Ed.

> The motors of most shop vacuums are cooled by the air that flows through the vacuum parts.  If there's no
> flow of air through the hose, there's none through the motor and the motors burn out quickly.   A very few
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> > > for ones off later model 'fridges (the date of manufacure should be on a
> > > label on the 'fridge)  bring home 2 or 3 to try.
Glenn Ashmore - 23 Oct 2003 12:05 GMT
What are you using for a bag?  Sounds like you don't have a very good
seal.  There should be no air if the bag is sealed properly.

> I've done it several times, and so have a lot of other guys.  Mine
> don't overheat.  They're not even all that warm.  I worried about that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>flow of air through the hose, there's none through the motor and the motors burn out quickly.   A very few
>>shop vacuums (Fein and ?) have 'bypass' fans which cool the motor even if there's no flow through the hose.

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Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at:  http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

 
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