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Boat Forum / Cruising / August 2005Advice on refrigeration units?
The 20-year-old Adler/Barbour unit on our Victory Tug has expired. Can't complain about the service, but what do you cruisers out there think about replacing it? Go with Adler/Barbour again, or is there a more up-to-date technology (and product) you'd recommend as superior? TIA. Dick Behan M/V ANNIE Glacier Bay has a really nice unit. I have a Nautic-Kold 12V belt driven system that kicks butt. Doug s/v Callista > The 20-year-old Adler/Barbour unit on our Victory Tug has expired. Can't > complain about the service, but what do you cruisers out there think about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dick Behan > M/V ANNIE A lot depends on the size of your fridge and how you use it. If you can go into a bit of detail, such as the size of the box(es), freezer requirements, and the nature of your cruising, you might get better advice. For example, if you cruise in cold water, a water cooled system would be more efficient. But if you power each day (or run a genset for A/C) then the power issues might not be important to you. I have larger Crosby (actually part of A/B) holding plate system for a separate fridge and freezer system that I've had a love/hate relationship with. When I pull a steak out of the freezer that's frozen down to zero degrees, I'm happy. But when I don't need the freezer, its a real annoyance to use 70 to 100 Amp-hours a day on the system. And of course, one small leak and the whole system is down. (This happened twice in 7 seasons, and both times was detected in home port, not while traveling.) If I were building my system now, I might consider having two systems based on the new Danfoss compressors. While perhaps not the most efficient in total, having two systems for the two boxes would give more flexibility in case one is lost. Danfoss is the "hermetic" sealed compressor your A/B is based on, and is used in most of the smaller systems today. Of course, the units have changed in the last 20 years, and each company has some "special technology" that makes theirs the best. You might look over www.rparts.com to get a free education about the components in use today. They carry the latest Danfoss units and this will give you a baseline to see if you're getting your money's worth from whichever system you decide on. > The 20-year-old Adler/Barbour unit on our Victory Tug has expired. Can't > complain about the service, but what do you cruisers out there think [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dick Behan > M/V ANNIE A water-cooled unit is always more efficient than an air-cooled unit. Unless somehow the air temp gets cool for a long period while the water temp stays high. Not very common. This is why all the larger units are water-cooled. Doug s/v Callista >A lot depends on the size of your fridge and how you use it. If you can go >into a bit of detail, such as the size of the box(es), freezer [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> Dick Behan >> M/V ANNIE It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth the power use of a water pump. This is a small issue with a large holding plate system because it only runs one or two hours a day, but the small evaporator based system may run 8 hours a day, and the water pump would then add a lot of overhead. And, it adds a through-hull, strainer and plumbing, and can get clogged with silt. This may be worthwhile Downeast, where the water is 52 degrees, but might not be in the tropics. > A water-cooled unit is always more efficient than an air-cooled unit. Unless > somehow the air temp gets cool for a long period while the water temp stays [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >>>Dick Behan >>>M/V ANNIE The water pump on my system draws less than 1/2 amp. Using a water-cooled system saves enough energy to more than offset the overhead of the pump. Doug > It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a > minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth the [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>>>Dick Behan >>>>M/V ANNIE Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a few Amp-hours savings. From Richard Kollman's site: 28. Question: Why would I want air cooling when water is more efficient? Answer: Boat refrigeration systems smaller than ¼ HP are generally air cooled for best performance and long term reliability. There are few conditions where the seawater cooling can out perform air cooling on these small units. To dispose of the heat in a boat from a small Danfoss refrigeration system is about the same as disposing of the heat generated from one person onboard, three hundred BTUs per hour. It is true that heat from larger refrigeration systems must use seawater because the heat can not be disposed adequately of onboard a boat. http://www.kollmann-marine.com/answers.html#28 And, what kind of pump is only a half Amp? Most of the circulating pumps for DC belt driven systems seem to take an Amp or more. The traditional March 809, for example, is rated at 1.5 Amps. Of course, the pump for a Danfoss system could be much smaller. > The water pump on my system draws less than 1/2 amp. Using a water-cooled > system saves enough energy to more than offset the overhead of the pump. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>>>>Dick Behan >>>>>M/V ANNIE > Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all > systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >>>>>> Dick Behan >>>>>> M/V ANNIE My little electric frige has a warm plate at the rear, more or less surrounded by cabinetry. My engine room vent inlet passes nearby. I wonder if venting the warm plate to the vent pipe using a dryer air box switch might provide some benefits during warm or even cold weather, depending on the airbox switch? First, would such a vent improve the efficiency of my frige? I am presuming that the engine would suck in the frige heat without any complications, and that there is enough rise in the intake side for when the engine is asleep. Hmmm. Would I benefit from blowing a fan into the open frige on a hot night? Maybe cooling down just for long enough to doze off in the saloon table hammock? Terry K >> Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all systems. >> Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a few [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > switch might provide some benefits during warm or even cold weather, > depending on the airbox switch? > First, would such a vent improve the efficiency of my frige? As long as the air you are providing is cooler that what it would otherwise see. > I am presuming that the engine would suck in the frige heat without any > complications, and that there is enough rise in the intake side for when > the engine is asleep. Hmmm. Hmmmm is right :) > Would I benefit from blowing a fan into the open frige on a hot night? > Maybe cooling down just for long enough to doze off in the saloon table > hammock? You're kidding, right? > Terry K I agree. There are situations where air-cooled units are more practical. But trying to say the the current draw of a water pump is somehow a factor vs the current draw of the fan in an air-cooled unit doesn't really hold. As to whether a thru-hull and a few more feet of hose represents a negative aspect is up to the individual. Water cooling isn't restricted to holding plate systems. Even AB offers water-cooling options for their evaporator systems. Doug s/v Callista > Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all systems. > Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a few [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] >>>>>>Dick Behan >>>>>>M/V ANNIE > Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all > systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a > few Amp-hours savings. It's more than that... water cooling may save a lot o' bucks by using a smaller unit. And it's more desirable in the tropics, where the ambient air temp is higher. As air temp gets above the 80s, trying to air cool a refrig'n condenser gets to be a losing proposition. Another alternative is the keel cooler. At least two companies now are making thru-hulls chambered & fitted for refrigeration keel cooling, so you don't have to drill any more holes in your hull. Some may be interested in my current project, 98% complete at this point: installing a freezer built into our dinette seat. After a LOT of research and spreadsheeting all the numbers, I decided on a Waeco (Adler-Barbour) CU-84 (based on the Danfoss BD-35) air cooled refrigeration unit, with an exhaust to the outside. The box is insulated on 5 sides with R-28 vacuum panels. I am currently finishing the lids, a relatively demanding bit of fiberglassing that I don't recommend. http://community.webshots.com/photo/49342790/389712634CcPfiT (next 7 pics) Fresh Breezes- Doug King >> Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all >> systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > air temp is higher. As air temp gets above the 80s, trying to air cool a > refrig'n condenser gets to be a losing proposition. So you chose air cooled. How come? One of the little ironies is that in cold water, the air in the bilge may be much cooler than on deck or in the engine room. I never bothered to measure, but I wonder if that's also true in the tropics. As for savings - the cost difference between the BD50 and BD35 is pretty small - certainly much less than a through hull, pump, and condenser. However, once you get larger its clear that water cooling has advantages. BTW, my father-in-law, an HVAC engineer and inventor, rigged up his home A/C to heat the swimming pool water with the waste heat. It worked great for a number of years, but now that he's 84 and his war injuries have caught up to him, he has trouble maintaining it. With the extra plumbing, its possible to loose the pool water, and then be without both pool and A/C. > Another alternative is the keel cooler. At least two companies now are > making thru-hulls chambered & fitted for refrigeration keel cooling, so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > http://community.webshots.com/photo/49342790/389712634CcPfiT > (next 7 pics) I like this setup. As I've mentioned before, using one compressor for both fridge and freezer can be a problem. The BD35 gives a lot of bang for the buck. > Fresh Breezes- Doug King >>> Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all >>> systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >> Fresh Breezes- Doug King I've gotten great service out of my spillover system. Cold plates in the freezer only. Thermostacally controlled vent into the fridge side. Large boxes. Probably 3 cuft in the freezer and 12 cuft in the fridge. Doug s/v Callista >>I like this setup. As I've mentioned before, using one compressor for >>both fridge and freezer can be a problem. The BD35 gives a lot of bang [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cuft > in the freezer and 12 cuft in the fridge. Then you really don't have a two box system. And, as with mine, you have no way to run the fridge only. If you truly had two boxes with two compressors, as I assume DSK has, then you have the option of shutting down the freezer to save energy, plus you have a backup. I have nothing against spillover systems, and your compressor system is probably almost identical to mine. I'm just pointing out possibilities that might work for different situations. >>>I like this setup. As I've mentioned before, using one compressor for >>>both fridge and freezer can be a problem. The BD35 gives a lot of bang [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Then you really don't have a two box system. It was two boxes last time I looked. > And, as with mine, you have no way to run the fridge only. True, but I have no need to do such. > If you truly had two boxes with two compressors, as I assume DSK has, > then you have the option of shutting down the freezer to save energy, plus > you have a backup. Sorry, a fridge isn't a good backp for a freezer and visa versa. But I truly have 2 boxes. You can come over and count them if you are in doubt. > I have nothing against spillover systems, and your compressor system is > probably almost identical to mine. I'm just pointing out possibilities > that might work for different situations. Of course. > "Jeff" <jeffmo@foo.net> wrote >>So you chose air cooled. How come? Smaller cheaper unit, plus my confidence in my ability to post-engineer a seawater assisted cooling unit from either of the two already existing seawater systems on board. >>One of the little ironies is that in cold water, the air in the bilge may >>be much cooler than on deck or in the engine room. I never bothered to >>measure, but I wonder if that's also true in the tropics. I'm sure it is. There would be at least a little cooling effect on air flowing into the bilge and then up thru the condensor... and presumably, thence overboard. It would help ventilate an area that prob'ly needs it, too. >>As for savings - the cost difference between the BD50 and BD35 is pretty >>small - certainly much less than a through hull, pump, and condenser. >>However, once you get larger its clear that water cooling has advantages. Actually the difference in price between the two Waeco units... the one I bought, and the next size bigger... is about $450, almost 50% more. That more than paid for the vacuum insulation panels. >>BTW, my father-in-law, an HVAC engineer and inventor, rigged up his home >>A/C to heat the swimming pool water with the waste heat. It worked great >>for a number of years, but now that he's 84 and his war injuries have >>caught up to him, he has trouble maintaining it. With the extra plumbing, >>its possible to loose the pool water, and then be without both pool and >>A/C. Excellent idea, but by late summer I bet the pool was quite warm. This would be a great system to use on a spring-fed pond! > I've gotten great service out of my spillover system. Cold plates in the > freezer only. > Thermostacally controlled vent into the fridge side. Large boxes. Probably 3 > cuft > in the freezer and 12 cuft in the fridge. Spillover systems can be very efficient if the access isn't terrible. For many, to get into the freezer you go thru the fridge, and leave the door open while you rummage around. My experience with fridge/freezers in one box is that if you set them cold enough to keep ice cream, they freeze the milk. Others may have better design. Most boat fridge installations commit at least one of the following cardinal sins: air cooled unit with insufficient air flow, wiring sized and/or connected improperly so unit sees low voltage, poor insulation, leaky door. The owners usually gripe about the last tech to service it and want the refrigerant loop recharged. Fresh Breezes- Doug King >>>So you chose air cooled. How come? > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > many, to get into the freezer you go thru the fridge, and leave the door > open while you rummage around. Never seen one like this. Terrible design IMHO. Door in in the counter so not that much air escapes. > My experience with fridge/freezers in one box is that if you set them cold > enough to keep ice cream, they freeze the milk. Others may have better > design. Never had this problem. Our freezer will freeze ice cream rock solid and will freeze 2 trays of ice cubes in 1/2 hour. Fridge side never gets below freezing due to the thermostatically controlled vent that lets the air from the freezer side to the fridge side > Most boat fridge installations commit at least one of the following > cardinal sins: air cooled unit with insufficient air flow, wiring sized > and/or connected improperly so unit sees low voltage, poor insulation, > leaky door. The owners usually gripe about the last tech to service it and > want the refrigerant loop recharged. I agree! > Fresh Breezes- Doug King Doug s/v Callista >>>> Again, this may be true, but it might not be appropriate for all >>>> systems. Adding a thru-hull and more components probably isn't worth a [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Doug > s/v Callista Oops! Correct that! 6 cuft in the freezer. Doug > Some may be interested in my current project, 98% complete at this > point: installing a freezer built into our dinette seat. After a LOT of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Fresh Breezes- Doug King I gotta ask - why the carbon fiber in a freezer? Evan Gatehouse >> Some may be interested in my current project, 98% complete at this point: >> installing a freezer built into our dinette seat. After a LOT of research [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Evan Gatehouse You lost me Evan. Where was carbon fiber mentioned? Doug s/v CAllista >>>Some may be interested in my current project, 98% complete at this point: >>>installing a freezer built into our dinette seat. After a LOT of research [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Doug > s/v CAllista This picture in your album: P1000793 Putting in the evap plate & fiberglass panels. Panels are epoxied together at each corner with a pre-molded fillet. The front f'glass panel has core-mat & carbon fiber; the bottomg panel is 4 layers of 8oz f'glass + 3 layers of 5oz carbon fiber. (pic orientat'n: up = stb'd, left = fwd) Evan > This picture in your album: It's the other Doug! > P1000793 > Putting in the evap plate & fiberglass panels. Panels are epoxied > together at each corner with a pre-molded fillet. The front f'glass > panel has core-mat & carbon fiber; the bottomg panel is 4 layers of 8oz > f'glass + 3 layers of 5oz carbon fiber. (pic orientat'n: up = stb'd, > left = fwd) The carbon fiber was added after both my wife & I decided that the bottom panel was too weak & flexy to take having stuff piled on it, dropped on it, etc etc... picture accidentally dropping a gallon tub of ice cream, and having to tear out the whole freezer to replace the bottom vacuum insulation panel... but it was overkill. 1 layer CF on top, 2 layers on the bottom, and you could drive a small car over the thing! Regards Doug King >> This picture in your album: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Regards > Doug King I didn;t see that picture. Only one picture showed up in my browser. Doug > I gotta ask - why the carbon fiber in a freezer? Umm, I can explain that... A long term project is building a carbon fiber dinghy... in the course of working up to actually building it, I've been practicing laying up some carbon fiber panels. Might as well use them for something, and the freezer bottom & lids need to be strong enough to withstand 'cruiser use.' I'm extremely flattered that you looked closely at the pictures! BTW most of the CF panels I've layed are earmarked for use as knees, hooks, & other small flat pieces of the eventual Doug's Perfect Dinghy. Fresh Breezes- Doug King >It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a >minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >worthwhile Downeast, where the water is 52 degrees, but might not be >in the tropics. The solution is: "Isotherm SP" for self pumping cooling with no moving parts. I have one for 2 years now and it never missed a bit. http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/refrigeration/faq.html Jeannette Bristol 32, San Carlos, Mexico http://www.eblw.com/contepartiro/contepartiro.html >>It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a >>minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Bristol 32, San Carlos, Mexico > http://www.eblw.com/contepartiro/contepartiro.html Looks like a system much like the Frikkin-Boat except the heat enchanger in in the sink drain. OK for a small systems. Doug s/v Callista >>>It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a >>>minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Doug >s/v Callista I don't get any refer hits (cough) for the term "Frikkin-Boat". Are there details for a DIY system somewhere? Thanks. >>>>It may be true that water cooled is usually more efficient, but for a >>>>minimal system based on a BD35, the added efficiency may not be worth [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> > I don't get any refer hits (cough) for the term "Frikkin-Boat". www.frigoboat.com > Are > there details for a DIY system somewhere? Check out Richard Kollman's book. Thanks. Dick, may I suggest you pull your dick out of your a.s and buy a cooler. Its cheaper and ice is available everywhere at low cost. Save yourself the head aches. And it will keep your wallet full. Although I am sure you will find some other foolish contraption to spend your money on. bob, friend to capt neal and other like minded men of the sea. Jeff-- Many thanks for a detailed and knowledgeable reply. The box on our boat is 9 cubic feet, and all we really need is what the Adler/Barbour unit provided. It served us well, and I'm looking only to replace that service--with another A/D or, as I queried, an up-to-date technology from another manufacturers. Thanks again. Dick > A lot depends on the size of your fridge and how you use it. If you can > go into a bit of detail, such as the size of the box(es), freezer [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> Dick Behan >> M/V ANNIE > The 20-year-old Adler/Barbour unit on our Victory Tug has expired. Can't > complain about the service, but what do you cruisers out there think [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dick Behan > M/V ANNIE Thanks a million, folks, for the good knowledgeable discussion. Dick |
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