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Boat Forum / Cruising / December 2005Unpredictable & Unavoidable Dangers at Sea
How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes each year ? Unpredictable storms (during long crossings) Rogue waves Shipping containers Whales Pirates Icebergs Submarines Others ? > How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of > incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Others ? Sudden onset mechanical failures. Hull failures Rigging failures. Illness Accidents on board unrelated to causes you listed  SignatureSomewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot. >> How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >> incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Illness >Accidents on board unrelated to causes you listed ======================================== Accidental injuries are very common, sometimes serious, almost always debilitating. Prevention awareness and good first aid training/supplies are very important. I've been on two different boats where people have broken ribs from being tossed across the cabin below decks. I have personally experienced broken teeth, a partially dislocated shoulder and several minor infections that could have turned nasty if not properly treated. A former friend of mine experienced a fatal heart attack while trying to refloat his boat from a grounding. Collisions are common also, sometimes with the bottom, sometimes with debris, and more often than you'd think, with other boats. There is a LOT of debris out there, all different types, and shipping containers are only a small part of the problem. A lot of collisions attributed to whales or shipping containers are more likely due to miscelaneous debris instead: Logs, pilings, whole sections of docks, large steel balls, runaway buoys, trees, fish netting, floating line, etc. You name it, and it's out there, and that's just the stuff I've actually seen. We see a lot during the day and who knows how much we've missed at night. More often than not it does not show up on the radar at all, or only dimly and buried in sea clutter. Several of the collisions that I am personally aware of happened between boats running on autopilot and not keeping a good lookout. Another happened to a boat in foggy conditions with an inexperienced radar operator at the helm, and uncertainty regarding right-of-way. If you have to worry about icebergs or pirates you are sailing the wrong route or at the wrong time of the year. Both are avoidable. Submarine collisions are extremely rare. Unpredictable storms and rogue waves are - - - - unpredictable, but they happen. >>> How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >>> incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Unpredictable storms and rogue waves are - - - - unpredictable, but > they happen. One problem that many boaters overlook. Falling overboard and not being able to get yourself back on board. I read about two or three such incidents each season. SignatureYou were right, it's all abut character. Impeach Bush Now. > I read about two or three such >incidents each season. ========================== Almost always written by the people still on deck. > Submarine collisions are extremely rare. Tell that to the Japaneese Research Vessel off the big Island..... >>Submarine collisions are extremely rare. > > Tell that to the Japaneese Research Vessel off the big Island..... Like I said, rare. Two ever that I know of. >>>Submarine collisions are extremely rare. >> >>Tell that to the Japaneese Research Vessel off the big >>Island..... > >Like I said, rare. Two ever that I know of. That's why I put it at the bottom of the list :-) >>>Submarine collisions are extremely rare. >> >> Tell that to the Japaneese Research Vessel off the big Island..... >Like I said, rare. Two ever that I know of. Is this one of them? http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/marine/1994/m94w0078/m94w0078.asp Jack _________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor http://www.swiftsuresailing.com _________________________________________ >>>>Submarine collisions are extremely rare. >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > http://www.swiftsuresailing.com > _________________________________________ Yeah, that is it. Note that it is pretty clearly a case of the yachtsman not conducting himself properly. The sub appears to have been doing everything correctly. I remember when it happened it was quite a fuss. I am in the Navy, and lived in Victoria at the time. There was a lot of discussion about yachts, traffic lanes and use of radar by folks with limited or no training. In any event, going the wrong way in the outbound traffic lanes, poor radar watch, on the wrong VTMS channel etc all adds up to a huge risk in fog. Gaz >> Submarine collisions are extremely rare. > >Tell that to the Japaneese Research Vessel off the big Island..... ========================================= There have been others but I stand by my statement. Submarines are way down on the bottom of my list of concerns. don't forget fire....... > don't forget fire....... The US Navy's biggest concern. Eisboch "The US Navy's biggest concern" somethin' about being on fire, in the middle of water, and not being able to get a fire under control.....it just shouldn't be..... > "The US Navy's biggest concern" > > somethin' about being on fire, in the middle > of water, and not being able to get a fire > under control.....it just shouldn't be..... Occasionally, people shoot at naval vessels, or drop bombs and the like on them. This often tends to start fires. SignatureJim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable. --Leslie Lamport >> "The US Navy's biggest concern" > > somethin' about being on fire, in the middle of water, and not being > able to get a fire under control.....it just shouldn't be..... Water won't work well on most of the fires I worry about: electrical, fuel, propane.... SignatureJere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ > > don't forget fire....... > > The US Navy's biggest concern. > > Eisboch True for a Navy.....but most yatch guys don't have people launching High Explosives at them, to start the fire...... You i was stationed on a carrier...we had a few flamable items on board....fuel, oil, nukes and conventional explosives... fire can be a real drag on board a super carrier..... > How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of > incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes > each year ? > > Unpredictable storms (during long crossings) No such thing. > Rogue waves Very rare. > Shipping containers Keep a lookout. > Whales Keep a lookout. > Pirates Stay away from higher risk reas. Look poor. > Icebergs Keep a lookout. (Not on major cruising routes. > Submarines Not on the surface. (deep) > Others ? Less risky than driving your car to work. The highest risk for me is getting injured or sick enroute or falling off the boat. Gaz >> How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >> incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Gaz Head blown off due to trying to unjam RPG launcher to attack approaching pirates. How about, face burnt off by positioning same to see the pretty fire in the back end of the launcher? I guess that would be a crew hazard. > >> How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of > >> incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Head blown off due to trying to unjam RPG launcher to attack approaching > pirates. > How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of > incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Others ? The big one you missed is Sailors who die at home while on the internet replying to Trolls. DP Yeah, but at least with poopy we can have some fun:} > > How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of > > incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > DP >Yeah, but at least with poopy we can have some fun:} Thanks MMC but this isn't a troll. I'm still trying to decide between a Tayana Vancouver 460 and a Beneteau 473 ! The Tayana has a collision bulkhead but may be less stable (AVS = 110 degrees) than the Beneteau (AVS = 120 degrees). So if the probability of getting capsized by a breaking wave is greater than the probability of a collision then it may make more sense to get the Beneteau than the Tayana. >> > How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >> > incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> The big one you missed is Sailors who die at home while on the internet >> replying to Trolls. Why are yous et on those two boats? They are quite different, so I'm a bit surprised your'e down to these two finalists. IMHO, a collision bulkhead, while nice, should not be at the top of the consideration list. A collision that would damage your hull to the extent of flooding the boat is not very likely, compared to some events that the stability and seaworthiness of the boat have more of an effect on. Especially considering what the outcome of a collision is, bulkhead or not. Do you also assume that the colision will be in such a location taht the balast will be worth the other risks? What attracts you to these two boats? mickey > Why are yous et on those two boats? They are quite different, so I'm a > bit surprised your'e down to these two finalists. IMHO, a collision [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > mickey Almost unintelligible. Gaz >Why are you set on those two boats? They are quite >different, so I'm a bit surprised your'e down to these [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >What attracts you to these two boats? I need at least 3 staterooms (one for the litter boxes) and 2 heads (so Olive can have an en-suite head). I don't need a boat as heavy as a Tayana but I just like the layout of the Vancouver 460 because of the pilothouse. However, this seems to be the only boat with 3 staterooms and a pilothouse which I can find around here for under $400,000. So if it's not stable enough for going offshore I'll have to get something without a pilothouse. Then I just happened to find a beautiful 2005 Beneteau 473 for sale at a good price. I've also considered Hunters and Catalinas but don't like them as much. Some Catalinas have an AVS of 105 degrees so they're even less stable than the Vancouver 460. Bavarias are also nice and have Kevlar in bow sections for increased impact and puncture resistance. I talked to Bob Harris (designer of the Vancouver 460) on Friday and he said he's going to email me later to address my concerns. He also told me that an AVS of 110 degrees is fine for this type of boat even though some people here think it's not good enough. >>What attracts you to these two boats? > > I need at least 3 staterooms (one for the litter boxes) > and 2 heads (so Olive can have an en-suite head). I don't see why you have to devote a stateroom for a litterbox. It isn't that hard to build one into any larger boat just by rearranging a locker. Its no more difficult than finding a spot for A/C, etc. As for a second head, its handy if you have a lot of guests, especially not close family. However, most cruisers end up with fewer long term guests than they expected. It is nice having a spare since head problems never occur at convenient times, although on a few occasions I've been able to tell my wife that I can't go to the craft festival because I really have to rebuild the head. On the other hand, two of anything means more maintenance. >>>What attracts you to these two boats? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >to rebuild the head. On the other hand, two of anything >means more maintenance. I have 6 cats and need at least 3 or 4 litter boxes :-) >>>>What attracts you to these two boats? >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I have 6 cats and need at least 3 or 4 litter boxes :-) Well, you don't need two heads because you won't have any guest. krj >I've also considered Hunters and >Catalinas but don't like them as much. Some Catalinas have >an AVS of 105 degrees so they're even less stable than the >Vancouver 460. Bavarias are also nice and have Kevlar in >bow sections for increased impact and puncture resistance. =================================== I have never seen a Hunter or Catalina that I would consider to be a serious offshore boat. There may be some somewhere, but not that I know of. Good coastal cruisers built to a price, that's my assessment. "I have never seen a Hunter or Catalina that I would consider to be a serious offshore boat" they are lightweight bay sailing crafts...I wouldn't turst my life in one off-shore..... >How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Others ? I forgot the sea mines. Are there still sea mines left from World War II ? >>How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >>incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I forgot the sea mines. Are there still sea mines left from > World War II ? Persian Gulf (Gulf War) but not elsewhere. >> I forgot the sea mines. Are there still sea mines left from >> World War II ? >Persian Gulf (Gulf War) but not elsewhere. ==================== It's my understanding that most mines are magnetically actuated so not much of an issue for plastic boats in any case. I'd rank it somewhere near collision with a submarine. Higher or lower than being attacked and sunk by a whale? > >> I forgot the sea mines. Are there still sea mines left from > >> World War II ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > much of an issue for plastic boats in any case. I'd rank it somewhere > near collision with a submarine. >Higher or lower than being attacked and sunk by a whale? =============== Probably lower but who knows. Anyone who has a need to feel absolutely safe and secure at all times should probably not be on a boat in the first place. There are too many unknowns for anyone to claim absolute safety. >> >> I forgot the sea mines. Are there still sea mines left from >> >> World War II ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> much of an issue for plastic boats in any case. I'd rank it somewhere >> near collision with a submarine. I agree. Arrgghhh, thar she blows! > >Higher or lower than being attacked and sunk by a whale? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >> much of an issue for plastic boats in any case. I'd rank it somewhere > >> near collision with a submarine. > I agree. Arrgghhh, thar she blows! > > > > >Higher or lower than being attacked and sunk by a whale? > > > > =============== I've read/heard of the whale problem. Seems you may hit one sleeping on the surface which may be any species. Or pilot whales have been said to deliberately attack a sailboat, especially a boat with a light colored hull underwater. The thinking being, they think they are attacking a predator such as a shark or orca. BTW Ever see orcas attack seals and sealions? Like a cat with a mouse. And the end is generally the same also. Gordon Maybe that's what the cats are for? Distract the sea monsters while the skipper and crew escape? > > I agree. Arrgghhh, thar she blows! > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the end is generally the same also. > Gordon >I agree. Arrgghhh, thar she blows! ============================= Aye matey, it be rough out there. >>> How would you rate the followings in terms of the number of >>> incidents involving loss of lives along the major cruising routes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Persian Gulf (Gulf War) but not elsewhere. I haven't heard of any for quite some years but back in the seventies there were occasional reports of floating mines around some of the Pacific Islands. I recall one chap (a Kiwi in '74) who sighted and photographed one in the Solomons. It kept me on my toes for a while. My biggest concerns are illness, I once had an appendix attack many days sail from medical aid, and someone going overboard at night. I charter and it is always a worry. I developed a simple but very effective man overboard alarm a few years back but couldn't get anyone interested in producing it. It also works as a "lost child" preventer, sounds when the wearer of the device moves more than thirty feet from the alarm sensor, both very portable. Sounds the alarm and triggers a MOB waypoint on the GPS. I imagine that there must be similar units produced nowadays although I have not seen one. My concern began after losing (and recovering) an eleven year old who went over the side at night back in '71. It wasn't my boat, I was crewing for a friend and it was his son who went over. We didn't find him missing for more than an hour. We had spent an hour or two in thirty foot swells and you couldn't move without holding on. The kid had been in his bunk when we last looked but had started feeling seasick and had try to throw up over the rail. He had a life vest with a water activated flashing light; don't like to think what would have happened if he hadn't been wearing it. It took us two hours to find him. For several years after that I would always trail a knotted line whenever there was only one watchkeeper on deck. Matelot |
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