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Boat Forum / Cruising / July 2006Sanitation Hose
I am installing a new head and am going to use fresh water for flushing getting away from saltwater. I would like to know if the fresh water will disolve the build-up inside the hose or do I need to replace the whole sanitation line. It's about a 20 to 25 foot run to the holding tank. Any help is appreciated. Thanks Don > I am installing a new head and am going to use fresh water for flushing > getting away from saltwater. You aren't gonna connect a toilet designed to use sea water to your fresh water system, are you? That can't be done without risk of contaminating the potable water supply with e-coli, damage to the toilet, or both...and every toilet mfr specifically warns against it. ONLY toilets designed to use pressurized flush water can safely be connected to the fresh water system. > I would like to know if the fresh water > will disolve the build-up inside the hose... Nope... > ... or do I need to replace the > whole sanitation line. You don't have to do that either. A 12% solution of muriatic acid in water will dissolve it. Or, if you'd rather not use muriatic acid, repeated doses of white vinegar will do the trick. > It's about a 20 to 25 foot run to the holding > tank. Unless it's all downhill, that's at least 4 x further than all but a few high end electric toilets can move bowl contents...you'll always have waste sitting in the line, and that will result in stinky hoses. The optimal distance from the toilet to a tank is 6' or less...10' is the absolute max. So I think you may need a bit more help than you asked for. If you'd like to email me, I'll be glad to help you spec out a system that won't create more problems than it solves: phnlr (hyphen)misc(at) yahoo(dot)com.  SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 > > It's about a 20 to 25 foot run to the holding >> tank. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > optimal distance from the toilet to a tank is 6' or less...10' is the > absolute max. This touches on a question I had for you. I've added the manual pump in series with the electric on my Lavac. The performance has been getting weaker over the years, and the manual pump is need as a frequent backup. In tracing all of the hoses I now understand why its always been sluggish. The water intake line is about 12 feet long, the head output to the pump should be two feet, but they circled it around for at least ten, and the holding tank is about 12 or 15 feet from the pump. Thus the total run is maybe 35 feet, an awful lot for even the Lavac pump. Some of this will be dealt with in the Fall (if we last that long!) but I wonder about one item: The waste line from the pump goes up to 5 feet over the sole, then down under the sole, under the shower, though the engine compartment and then rises up to go into the holding tank which is built into the stern steps. This means there's a low section about 6 feet long, maybe 3 feet lower than the high point near the tank. Is this very bad, or just sub-optimal? Since I can't shorten this, should I keep it high, perhaps using some pvc as a conduit to run it through the shower? And how much do I have to clean the hose that might not ever come out of the bilge? TIA, Jeff > This touches on a question I had for you. I've added the manual pump in > series with the electric on my Lavac. I wouldn't recommend that. I wouldn't recommend the electric Lavac either. > The performance has been getting > weaker over the years, and the manual pump is need as a frequent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > least ten, and the holding tank is about 12 or 15 feet from the pump. > Thus the total run is maybe 35 feet, an awful lot for even the Lavac pump. Sheesh! O WONDER you have problems! I don't suppose it ever occurred to anyone so far to read the bloomin' installation instructions? > Some of this will be dealt with in the Fall (if we last that long!) but > I wonder about one item: The waste line from the pump goes up to 5 feet [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the shower? And how much do I have to clean the hose that might not > ever come out of the bilge? Who dreamed up THAT nightmare????? The right solution: relocate the tank! If you don't think that's possible, you're wrong...email me. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 If I had a, let's say, lavac toilet, and a dedicated freshwater tank for flushing - with a manual pump, why wouldn't it work? Since the freshwater tank would not be pressurized, wouldn't that solve the problem? Or are there other issues in regards to salinity that cannot be worked around? I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just curious. The idea of being able to use the highly praised Lavac with freshwater and a manual pump sounds like it might be a good combo. My boat has more fresh water than I can ever use. >> I am installing a new head and am going to use fresh water for flushing >> getting away from saltwater. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >like to email me, I'll be glad to help you spec out a system that won't >create more problems than it solves: phnlr (hyphen)misc(at) yahoo(dot)com. > If I had a, let's say, lavac toilet, and a dedicated freshwater tank > for flushing - with a manual pump, why wouldn't it work? As long as it's connected to a dedicated tank that isn't linked in any way to your fresh water system, it WILL work. When it comes to connecting toilets to the onboard fresh water > Since the > freshwater tank would not be pressurized, wouldn't that solve the > problem? Or are there other issues in regards to salinity that cannot > be worked around? As long as the supply source is completely separate from the fresh water supply, it doesn't matter what kind of toilet is connected to it...the only issue is the danger of polluting the potable water supply. \ And don't think you're out of the woods if you don't drink the onboard water...you wash your hands in it...then pick up a sandwich. You rinse out a glass, then pour your bottled water into that glass--which is now about as clean as your toilet bowl. > I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just curious. The idea of being > able to use the highly praised Lavac with freshwater and a manual pump > sounds like it might be a good combo. The Lavac is a raw watr toilet...if you want to flush with with fresh water, you'll have to provide a source for the flush water than isn't connected in any way to your fresh water plumbing. > My boat has more fresh water than I can ever use. Then take longer showers. :) Email me...we'll work out something you'll be happy with. (Fwiw to those who don't know I've been here since God was an adolescent, the offer to contact me via email was NOT an attempt to solicit business. There is NO charge for my help, nor do I have anythin to sell...and my advice is free. However, both my publisher and I would appreciate it if you check out the link in my signature. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 I can attest to this. Peggie has helped a lot of people with head issues thru the years. Very responsive and doesn't smack us when we ask dumb questions. > (Fwiw to those who don't know I've been here since God was an > adolescent, the offer to contact me via email was NOT an attempt to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > However, both my publisher and I would appreciate it if you check out > the link in my signature. http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 Peggie, Do you recommend white vineger for flushing fresh water systems? MMC > > I am installing a new head and am going to use fresh water for flushing > > getting away from saltwater. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > like to email me, I'll be glad to help you spec out a system that won't > create more problems than it solves: phnlr (hyphen)misc(at) yahoo(dot)com. http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 > Peggie, > Do you recommend white vineger for flushing fresh water systems? I'm not sure whether you mean toilets that use fresh water, or the potable water system...so I'll address both. White vinegar is both an odor eliminator and a mineral dissolver...so while it's not really needed in toilets that use fresh water, it certainly can't hurt the hoses to flush a cupful through 'em before the boat is to sit. Just don't leave it sitting in the bowl, and be sure to flush it all out of the pump...'cuz while vinegar won't do anything to soft rubber just passing through, soft rubber left to soak in vinegar will swell and distort. Potable water systems: After recommissioning the system each spring, a solution of 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water left in the tank for several days--with the pump left on to also keep the solution in the plumbing--will remove any remaining chlorine or antifreeze taste/smell in the system. Drain through every faucet, then fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full with clean water and flush the vinegar solution out of the lines. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 >> Peggie, >> Do you recommend white vineger for flushing fresh water systems? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in the system. Drain through every faucet, then fill the tank 1/4-1/2 > full with clean water and flush the vinegar solution out of the lines. Wow, that means that I need to buy 38 quarts of vinegar for my 140 gal and 50 gal that I am currently fixing. Didn't realize I would need so much. krj >> Potable water systems: After recommissioning the system each spring, a >> solution of 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water left in the tank for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Wow, that means that I need to buy 38 quarts of vinegar for my 140 gal > and 50 gal that I am currently fixing. Didn't realize I would need so much. You didn't read what I wrote carefully enough...'cuz you don't need anywhere near that much. You only need a couple of gallons for the 140 gal tank and 1 quart at most for the 50 gal tank. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 >>> Potable water systems: After recommissioning the system each spring, >>> a solution of 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water left in the tank [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > anywhere near that much. You only need a couple of gallons for the 140 > gal tank and 1 quart at most for the 50 gal tank. Guess I read it wrong. I figured 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water was 140/5= 28 quarts. krj > I figured 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water > was 140/5= 28 quarts. Read it again (the third time it HAS to sink in)...I didn't say FILL the tank...I said, "fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full ..." The solution is 1 quart vinegar to 5 gal WATER, NOT 1 quart vinegar to the total amount the tank can hold. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 >> I figured 1 quart white vinegar to 5 gal. water >> was 140/5= 28 quarts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The solution is 1 quart vinegar to 5 gal WATER, NOT 1 quart vinegar to >the total amount the tank can hold. So you fill the tank 1/4 full of this solution? or do you just use 5 gal of water for any size tank? If we filled our tanks 1/4 full, that would be 50 gallons, so it would be 10 quarts of vinegar (??) When we used to use fresh water flush it wasn't connected to the toilet at all - we just used the shower head to flush the toilet with. > So you fill the tank 1/4 full of this solution? or do you just use 5 > gal of water for any size tank? Put enough in the tank to get it into all the plumbing. If only 5 gal. is enough to do that, then 5 gal. is all you need. > When we used to use fresh water flush it wasn't connected to the > toilet at all - we just used the shower head to flush the toilet with. It has nothing to do with toilet flush water, Rosie...unless you care whether the toilet flush water smells/tastes like chlorine or antifreeze. However, using the shower head to put water in the bowl is not good for the toilet pump...'cuz what's in the bowl is only passed through the bottom part of the pump, leaving the rubber parts in the upper part of the pump dry, which deteriorates 'em. If you have the typical electric macerating pump, closing the seacock and only putting water into the bowl causes the intake impeller to spin dry, which "fries" it with the first flush and then will destroy the intake pump housing. If you've done that, if you ever open the intake seacock again, water will flood the bowl--overflowing it, if it's below the waterline--because there's no longer anything left of the impeller to block it. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 Potable. Thanks Peggie. > > Peggie, > > Do you recommend white vineger for flushing fresh water systems? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in the system. Drain through every faucet, then fill the tank 1/4-1/2 > full with clean water and flush the vinegar solution out of the lines. http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 This business about not connecting FW systems to sanitary plumbing reminds me of a USPH required and approved arrangment for FW flushing systems. It's called an "Air Gap" and is basically just a funnel with a pipe outlet a few inches above it. The funnel goes to the tank for fresh flush water. The valve can either be manual or perhaps controlled by a float in the flush water tank. If something goes wrong with the sanitary system, the water just backs up and overflows the funnel with no way to get into the potable water. SignatureRoger Long "Roger Long" <rwlong@maine.rr.com> wrote in news:N7Svg.653$uH6.463 @twister.nyroc.rr.com: > If something goes wrong with the > sanitary system, the water just backs up and overflows the funnel with > no way to get into the potable water. Yecch....geez. I just ate Chinese food!..... > "Roger Long" <rwlong@maine.rr.com> wrote in news:N7Svg.653$uH6.463 > @twister.nyroc.rr.com: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yecch....geez. I just ate Chinese food!..... You're as bad as my plumbers. Just finished my bath re-model and one of the young plumbers was snaking a slow moving tub/shower drain. I could tell he didn't want to do it, as they do brand new installations 95% of the time...nice clean work. As he pulled the snake back with that greasy gray hairy mess, he put his nose into his sleeve. I thought he was going to hurl. It didn't smell the best... but after all...what would you expect. Young guys...... they don't want to get their hands dirty anymore. > This business about not connecting FW systems to sanitary plumbing > reminds me of a USPH required and approved arrangment for FW flushing > systems. What is USPH??? > It's called an "Air Gap" and is basically just a funnel with a pipe > outlet a few inches above it. The funnel goes to the tank for fresh > flush water. The valve can either be manual or perhaps controlled by a > float in the flush water tank. If something goes wrong with the > sanitary system, the water just backs up and overflows the funnel with > no way to get into the potable water. ???? I can't see how that would work in any marine sanition system. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 > ???? I can't see how that would work in any marine sanitation > system. Back when I was a young pup in a design office drawing piping schematics for passenger vessels I used to put these in on every sanitary piping plan because they were on the plans they gave me as a "go-by". These were large vessels by yacht standards, generally with ordinary jet flush toilets like you would find in an office building. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work in a fresh water flushing system. Even if you had a large flushing tank, you might want to be able to replenish it from the main tank; especially if you were running an RO system into it. Here's how it would look: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Flush.jpg On the large vessels with engineers monitoring everything, the float switch was just a manual valve and the flush tank large enough for about a day's use. My sink drain connection to the head intake is just a variation of this. If I simply added a 2 -3 gallon tank into the line, which I have some minimally useful space to do, I could easily set the system up for several unattended FW flushes. This is something I might want to do if I planned to visit some place like St. Johns, Newfoundland where the water coming into the head might well be dirtier than the water flushing out of it:) SignatureRoger Long The way the fresh water flush on my boat works is via the head sink. The drain hose on the sink has a diverter valve, and in one position it goes out via an above water thruhull, in the other, it drains into the line that feeds the head pump. The line leading down to the raw water line for the head is also vented, so that it can't siphon back out to the sink. Works really well, but I do have to remember to fill the fresh water tank, which is fairly small on my boat, before a longer trip. SD > This business about not connecting FW systems to sanitary plumbing > reminds me of a USPH required and approved arrangment for FW flushing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sanitary system, the water just backs up and overflows the funnel with > no way to get into the potable water. > I am installing a new head and am going to use fresh water for flushing > getting away from saltwater. I would like to know if the fresh water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Don Thanks for the help, I thought I would have to change the hose, Defender has some for 3.99 a foot. I have a new Raritan "Atlantes Freedom" with a freshwater valve and siphon break so I am not worried about contamination to the freshwater supply. If I must, I guess I can add an extra pump to pump the crap up hill. As for the Acid, that would void the warranty and probably damage the unit. Peggy, I will write you off list. Again, Thanks Don > I have a new Raritan "Atlantes Freedom" with a freshwater valve and > siphon break so I am not worried about contamination to the freshwater > supply. If I must, I guess I can add an extra pump to pump the crap up > hill. You shouldn't need it. > As for the Acid, that would void the warranty and probably damage > the unit. No, it wouldn't. In fact, a 12% solution of muratic acid in water--which is flushed through the toilet (any toilet, including theirs)--is what Raritan specifies in their instructions to remove sea water mineral buildup on the electrode pack in a Lectra/San > Peggy, I will write you off list. SignaturePeggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 |
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