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Boat Forum / Cruising / July 2008Silaprene Adhesive/Sealant experience
A buddy handed me a tube of this stuff and gave me a little sermon on its virtues compared to 5200. Apparently it is used in the auto industry and it sticks well to metal. Has anyone here been using it on boats and if so how's it holding up? -- Tom. >A buddy handed me a tube of this stuff and gave me a little sermon on >its virtues compared to 5200. Apparently it is used in the auto >industry and it sticks well to metal. Has anyone here been using it >on boats and if so how's it holding up? > >-- Tom. "Silaprene" is the name for about 200 different formulas, some of which may react badly with what you are bonding, or have other issues. That said, 5200 is not a good general purpose adhesive, either. There are very few "good" uses for it on a boat. I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 extraordinarily useful. However, it is NOT a sealant. It is a very very tenacious, all temperature, gap filling, permanent adhesive with limited flexibility. Used correctly, it will last longer than the boat. It is expressly useful for adhering different materials having different expansion coefficients. Steve >>A buddy handed me a tube of this stuff and gave me a little sermon on >>its virtues compared to 5200. Apparently it is used in the auto [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That said, 5200 is not a good general purpose adhesive, either. There > are very few "good" uses for it on a boat. You are right but, owning a boat in which 5200 was used for everything by the PO, I think all boat owners should be required to get a note from their mothers before being allowed to buy the stuff. -- Roger Long >I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis >for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> That said, 5200 is not a good general purpose adhesive, either. There >> are very few "good" uses for it on a boat. It's not a good general purpose adhesive because it's permanent. I've used lots of it also, but only for things I don't want to ever unattach. 4200 is better for that sort of use. I don't believe he used the word sealant.  Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com >I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis >for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >coefficients. >Steve Clearly, you haven't read the complete documentation for 5200, either. Despite your claim to the contrary, the manufacturer labels it an adhesive/sealant. What it is NOT, is a GENERAL PURPOSE adhesive OR sealant. It should never be used for deck hardware or fittings, as it can not be easily removed without damaging the items it is bonding and sealing. Outlasting the boat is not necessarily a good thing. ALL sealants, including 5200 will fail eventually due to age, or due to damage. The difference is that other sealants can be removed and replaced without damage to the boat. The manufacturer says if you will EVER need to dissasemble the items from each other you should use something else. In other words, whatever you stick together with 5200 should be considered no longer repairable if anything should ever happen to it. You "might" get it apart, but then, they say some vasectomies are reversable, too. >>>A buddy handed me a tube of this stuff and gave me a little sermon on >>>its virtues compared to 5200. Apparently it is used in the auto [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> That said, 5200 is not a good general purpose adhesive, either. There >> are very few "good" uses for it on a boat. There is a solvent for 5200 which is also magic for getting 30 year old striping tape residue and similar stuff off. I forgot the exact name but it is something like "Marine Formula". Google should turn it up. -- Roger Long >There is a solvent for 5200 which is also magic for getting 30 year old >striping tape residue and similar stuff off. I forgot the exact name but it >is something like "Marine Formula". Google should turn it up. Like I said earlier, "some" vasectomies are reversable. You can't count on it, though. I would also wonder what effects a solvent for 5200 might have on fiberglass, and other materials that it might contact. Do they claim it will penetrate deeply and release 5200 that is holding something such as a chainplate? I'd just as soon use something that doesn't leave a question that may have an unhappy answer later - far from port. It's not as if there aren't proper alternatives. >>There is a solvent for 5200 which is also magic for getting 30 year old >>striping tape residue and similar stuff off. I forgot the exact name but it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >leave a question that may have an unhappy answer later - far from >port. It's not as if there aren't proper alternatives. How about getting specific? Like where you use 5200 as an adhesive and where you use something else. Same use of a one-for-all solution happens a lot on the automotive side. Since Blue RTV came out it's found it stuck between every part put together by some mechanics, whether it serves a useful purpose or not. I promise not to mention WD-40 - or MSD's. Personally, I'm pretty particular about lubricants and caulks, but sometimes slip with the small squeeze tube stuff, because it's prone to harden up after being opened. --Vic >>>There is a solvent for 5200 which is also magic for getting 30 year old >>>striping tape residue and similar stuff off. I forgot the exact name but it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >How about getting specific? I was very specific. I recommend that you read documentation and know what you are using before using it. >Like where you use 5200 as an adhesive and where you use something >else. Here's a specific recommendation: Use 5200 in cases where it will work and absolutely nothing else will. Don't use a sledge hammer to hang a picture on a plaster wall, either. >Same use of a one-for-all solution happens a lot on the automotive >side. Since Blue RTV came out it's found it stuck between every part [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >--Vic > >I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis > >for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 > >extraordinarily useful. Same here sa...@dog.com wrote: > What it is NOT, is a GENERAL PURPOSE adhesive OR sealant. It should > never be used for deck hardware or fittings, as it can not be easily > removed without damaging the items it is bonding and sealing. I agree with you, 5200 is not a GENERAL PURPOSE material. Guys like you should not use it... Damaging deck hardware & fittings? WTF??!? For the rest of us, 5200 is great. Shucks, 3-M makes a huge number of very very useful products. DSK >> >I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis >> >for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I agree with you, 5200 is not a GENERAL PURPOSE material. You should have stopped right here, before your "inner stupid blowhard" took over once again. >Guys like >you should not use it... Damaging deck hardware & fittings? WTF??!? No, that's not what I said. Guys like you should have someone read and explain things to you. When you bed deck hardware and fittings to a fiberglass deck or hull surface, removing that piece without damage to the fiberglas is not always a complete success. And if the surface is wood, you may as well have replacement wood at the ready. It's going to make a mess. >For the rest of us, 5200 is great. Shucks, 3-M makes a huge number of >very very useful products. Nobody said 3M doesn't make a huge number of great products. I didn't even say that 5200 was a bad product. I plainly said that it simply isn't right for the majority of places where ignorant buffoons and hacks such as you slather it on things indiscriminently. On Jul 12, 8:25 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: > >> >I guess I do not understand your comment, as you did not include the basis > >> >for the statement. I have used cases of the stuff and find 5200 [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hello....... Foul mouth Bob here, I chose to NOT use 5200 to bed my through deck chain plates becuase the 3M TDS numbers were too WEAK for my liking. I read the many, "youre an idiot for using 5200 to bed chain plates. It will eventually fail and will be hell to remove !" Well after reading the test results of several products I agree................ 5200 is weak comared to other products and will fail. So why not use a "better" product? Duh....... So I chose Silaprene. When I talked with their tech guy he said one of the more common uses is glueing truck trailors togehter. extreame temp range/vibration/expansion-contraction. Ya nkow the 40' semi boxes rolling down the interstate at 70 mph. They dont use 3M 5200. Now about that link from the Good old Boats.......... Why do you think that ONLY BOat LIfe and 5200/4200 are specificly named yet no other company products get a mention?????? No if I was bedding a below the water line through hull........... then Id use 5200! why, cause the product is better suited for 100% immersion. Things have come a long way since Dolphinite. Bob Bob > >Guys like > >you should not use it... Damaging deck hardware & fittings? WTF??!? sa...@dog.com wrote: > No, that's not what I said. Yes it is. Maybe this will refresh your memory "sa...@dog.com wrote: > What it is NOT, is a GENERAL PURPOSE adhesive OR sealant. It should > never be used for deck hardware or fittings, as it can not be easily > removed without damaging the items it is bonding and sealing. " See? You wrote fairly plain English. Or were the grandkids playing with the computer again? > ... When you bed deck hardware and fittings to a fiberglass deck or > hull surface, removing that piece without damage to the fiberglas is not always > a complete success. It is if you know how. > ... I plainly said that it simply isn't right for the > majority of places where ignorant buffoons and hacks such as you slather it on > things indiscriminently. You should try to calm down and think before you post, Saltie/BB I have used 5200 on many things, but not "indiscriminently," and never damaged anything with it, nor damaged anything trying to remove it. In fact, I have a hard time picturing how you could do that... you must be a lot smarter about how to damage boats than I am. But then, I can generally remember what I said yesterday, too. DSK >> >Guys like >> >you should not use it... Damaging deck hardware & fittings? WTF??!? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >It is if you know how. Bull, unless you are in the habit of applying a layer of wax on the fiberglass so The 5200 never actually bonds to it. >> ... I plainly said that it simply isn't right for the >> majority of places where ignorant buffoons and hacks such as you slather it on >> things indiscriminently. > >You should try to calm down and think before you post, Saltie/BB Yes, I should ignore trolls such as you who post only to start trouble. I hope you can always handle what you get in return. >I have used 5200 on many things, but not "indiscriminently," and never >damaged anything with it, nor damaged anything trying to remove it. Sure, Tugboat. You're the world foremost authority on everything. At least, in your mind, anyway. The rest of the world may have a different impression of you. >In fact, I have a hard time picturing how you could do that... Yes, your lack of imagination is well known, and a sign of low intellect. On Jul 13, 1:15 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote: > >> >Guys like > >> >you should not use it... Damaging deck hardware & fittings? WTF??!? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Bull, unless you are in the habit of applying a layer of wax on the fiberglass > so The 5200 never actually bonds to it. Actually, I keep a layer of wax on most of my boat's surfaces. But not in places where fittings are mounted & bedded. Is that what you do? My method in removing 5200 has been to use a thin blade to cut it free, then use a small wire wheel to remove it from both surfaces. It's time consuming, but I've only had to do this a few times. Only once do I recall a 5200-bedded fitting leaking and requiring re- bedding. A pretty good record IMHO. Still, there are a lot of places that 5200 isn't really good to use. > >You should try to calm down and think before you post, Saltie/BB > > Yes, I should ignore trolls such as you who post only to start trouble. I hope > you can always handle what you get in return. Are you threatening me, BB? Waddaya gonna do, get out your phone book again? DSK Has anyone tried DeBond Marine Formula? I have been using it on 6 to 8 month old 5200 and it works great. Had to remove a couple of fittings that I had installed a little to soon and had to take them off to get under them to work. Came off the fiberglass clean with a little prying with a screwdriver and a plastic wedge with no mess and no damage to the FRP. Just scored around he edges with a razor knife, sprayed on the DeBond and waited about 5 minutes. Lifted one corner with the screw driver, inserted the wedge and lifted the other corner. I don't know how it did it but it penetrated across both surfaces of a 3" wide area of 5200. Might take 2 or 3 applications to make it across a wider area. Also good for cleaning up those drips that seem to leap across the boat. SignatureGlenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com > On Jul 13, 1:15 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote: >> >> >Guys like [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > DSK ... > Shameless Commercial Division:http://www.spade-anchor-us.com Are you still doing this? I can't get the site to load. -- Tom. No, I need to get that off my sig. I don't post in the news groups much anymore and forgot it was still there. Took the web site down last month. I put up with the dollar going into the crapper until I just couldn't afford to keep inventory. When I started 86 cents could buy a Euro. Takes twice that now. I just can't in good conscience charge enough for them to make up for the costs. I still have 2 A80 that I will sell at cost but they are not big enough for a decent size cruiser. SignatureGlenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com On Jul 13, 11:12 am, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashm...@cox.net> wrote: ... > Shameless Commercial Division:http://www.spade-anchor-us.com Are you still doing this? I can't get the site to load. -- Tom. > I still have 2 A80 that I will sell at cost but they are not big enough > for a decent size cruiser. I take serious exception to the A80s (aluminum, 15#) not being big enough for a "decent size" cruiser! My experience has been that an A80 is significant overkill for our lovely lady, and she's definitely decent. They were deemed large enough for 34' or so when I got our first, I believe conservatively. Our A80 beat out about every opponent in widely-divergent places on the Chesapeake over the years. The opposition, whatever was on 45-50' cruising boats, dragged. Ours was always the "safety", but all too often the whole raftup depended upon us in the morning. The S80 we now have has demonstrated superior holding ability to the A80 throughout the Chesapeake. Its astounded me, who was astounded by the A80's capabilities. SignatureJere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ > Has anyone tried DeBond Marine Formula? That's the stuff I mentioned farther up in the thread but couldn't remember the name of. I haven't used it on 5200 but, seeing how it work on the gunk left over after heat gunning off stripping tape that had been baking in the sun for nearly 30 years, I can believe it will disolve anything without harming the fiberglass. Magic stuff. -- Roger Long >On Jul 13, 1:15 pm, sa...@dog.com wrote: >> >> >Guys like [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >DSK Maybe you had better find out what happened to your imaginary FBI agent. Nobody has seen him in a VERY long time. Maybe someone killed him... On Jul 8, 10:31 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: > "Silaprene" is the name for about 200 different formulas, some of > which may react badly with what you are bonding, or have other issues. The tube just says "Silaprene North America's Premier Adhesive/ Sealant" and they list the polymer base as Polychloroprene. There aren't that many "Silaprene" adhesive/sealant products but there are more than I'd have guessed from looking at the package. http://www.industrialadhesives.com/brand.asp?division_id=4 for a list. As for the rest, could be, that's why I'm asking for experience. -- Tom. >On Jul 8, 10:31 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: >> "Silaprene" is the name for about 200 different formulas, some of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >-- Tom. This is where I got the "200 different formulas" from on that web page: "The Silaprene line of products has over 200 offerings for bonding, adhering or sealing almost any substrate in the most demanding applications." Maybe they count each different packaging size as an "offering, and I misinterpreted it. On Jul 9, 8:43 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: ... > Maybe they count each different packaging size as an "offering, and I > misinterpreted it. Yeah, I'm not sure what they are saying but if you click on the "brochure" link it only shows a hand full of "Siliprene" tubes of which I think 7 are adhesive/sealants. -- Tom. >On Jul 9, 8:43 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: >... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >-- Tom. Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home version releases ACID as it cures. Pretty hard on boat hardware. On Jul 10, 3:35 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: ... > Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, > and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home > version releases ACID as it cures. Pretty hard on boat hardware. I think I get your point, and that's why I've been asking for reports from users. Still, the 3M "Marine" silicone sealant that I bought at West Marine just a few months ago was acid cure and double the price of hardware store too... And, FWIW, 5200 releases solvents which may include toluene, heptane and acetone. I'm still waiting for the adhesive / sealant that sticks to everything, melts nothing and cures in just the time needed... I don't know if this Silaprene stuff is it, but the ability to stick to unprimed metal and other interesting properties (see Bob's post) could make it a useful addition to my bag of less than ideal goos. -- Tom. >On Jul 10, 3:35 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: >... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >-- Tom. I get your point as well. I think 3m Marine caulk should have better labeling. They do mention in the fine print that you shouldn't use it on electronics because it is corrosive. Personally I use Boatlife Lifeseal where something similar to silicone is indicated. It has a stronger bond, anyway. I use silicone sometimes on plastic to plastic, and there, I usually opt for Lifeseal, too. On Jul 10, 7:30 am, "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 10, 3:35 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: > ... > > > Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, > > and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! > I think I get your point, and that's why I've been asking for reports > from users. Still, the 3M "Marine" silicone sealant that I bought at > West Marine just a few months ago was acid cure and double the price > of hardware store too... My advice is spend a few days and become knowldegable sealant-adhesive user. It took me nearly a month of calls to tech guys, reading Technical Data Sheets, crusing websites to get a good understanding. RE: WM....and anyother retail boat store. They will carry the product that provides the most profit and is "most popular" for everybodys use... You know, the fit all product. Regarding silicon products. When I installed my polycarb fixed port lights I had to use silicone. After a few weeks I narrowed a few products down and started calling the manufactures. Then I called a couple instate big city commercial window installers (Union Shops of course). I chose a product used to "glue" 4'x8' windows in sky scrapers and keep Lexan in place in high security prisons. The tech guys refered to it as "structural silicone" It has the same density as lead (JK). It was a Dow Corning product can t remember the #, maybe DC-735??? What im getting at is the last place you may want to seek info is from WM or other boaters........ Go to the experts and tell them the your aplication n specs and see what happens. > I'm still waiting for the > adhesive / sealant that sticks to everything, melts nothing and cures > in just the time needed... > -- Tom. It s not going to happen........... get the right goo for the right job. And always remember when you use "boat life" or a Universal Goo, it will always be a compromise. Personally i do not want to compromise my projects. Fair winds and good gooing.... Bob > On Jul 10, 7:30 am, "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jul 10, 3:35 am, sa...@dog.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] ><snip> > Bob Perhaps the stuff you have in mind is Dow-Corning 795. I've used it quite successfully to attach plexiglas deadlights. --Alan Gomes >Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, >and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home >version releases ACID as it cures. Pretty hard on boat hardware. Acetic acid, that is, vinegar. Not in a class with some other acids for corrosiveness, but not desirable. Won't normally do much to stainless. Casady >>Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, >>and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Casady Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. Acetic acid can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you with their effects on metals including stainless. >Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. Acetic acid >can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you >with their effects on metals including stainless. Where does one buy the higher concentrations? I'm looking for something to apply to the aluminum stanchion bases in order to get loose the stainless bolts securing the stanchions to the bases. Might the higher concentrations of acetic be what I'm looking for? >>Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. Acetic acid >>can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >bolts securing the stanchions to the bases. Might the higher concentrations >of acetic be what I'm looking for? I don't know. Have you tried PB Blaster, and a hammer driven impact driver? If you want to try a strong acid, use the stuff they sell for dissolving barnacles. Just be very careful with it, and don't accidentally inhale the fumes. >Have you tried PB Blaster, and a hammer driven impact >driver? I've tried PB Blaster and a hammer applied to the bolts after removing the nuts. No joy--just deformed the bolts. >>Have you tried PB Blaster, and a hammer driven impact >>driver? > >I've tried PB Blaster and a hammer applied to the bolts after removing the >nuts. No joy--just deformed the bolts. Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver Like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37530 When you strike this device with a hammer, it applies the impact, as well as turning force at the same time. Very effective. Japanese motorcycles used to have steel Phillips head screws holding on the aluminum engine parts. This tool could get them out, even of the screw heads were already partially rounded out from previous attempts. Of course, those phillips head screws usually got replaced with allen heads upon reassembly. A little Lanacote or tef-gel on the threads is a good idea to prevent future problems. >Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >When you strike this device with a hammer, it applies the impact, as >well as turning force at the same time. Might be worth a try. I have one of those and have used it to remove some tough fittings. Didn't occur to me that banging and twisting on the head end might be more effective than trying to simply drive the bolt from the threaded end. >>Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >might be more effective than trying to simply drive the bolt from the >threaded end. It's not quite a substiture for a pnuematic impact driver, but when a compressor is not available, it's a good alternative. >>> Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It's not quite a substiture for a pnuematic impact driver, but when a > compressor is not available, it's a good alternative. Sorry, I missed what the OP's use would be, but for slotted/phillips screw removal, the hammer version is actually much more effective, since the downward (or inward if you prefer) force will keep the screw head from stripping. For hex/allen heads, I'd agree with you about the pneumatics. Keith Hughes >>>> Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Keith Hughes He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. We are in agreement about the hammer driver vs. the pneumatic gun for screws, although, when I had air available, I always tried each screw first with the small air gun first, because it usually worked, and was so fast. Recalcitrant screws got a follow-up from the hammer driver. Occasionally a screw was so welded to the aluminum that the screw head would twist and break off, but that thankfully didn't happen often. > He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. Ahh... > We > are in agreement about the hammer driver vs. the pneumatic gun for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Occasionally a screw was so welded to the aluminum that the screw head > would twist and break off, but that thankfully didn't happen often. No, but it happened *too* often :-) And 30-40 years ago, I couldn't afford a compressor! Keith >> He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >No, but it happened *too* often :-) True! LOL >He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. Not quite correct. The PO apparently removed the stanchions from their bases each year when he covered the boat, and I also removed them from their bases the year after I bought the boat. So it's been about 3 years since they were loose. I'm surprised at how quickly the bolts became irremovable. >>He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. > >Not quite correct. The PO apparently removed the stanchions from their bases >each year when he covered the boat, and I also removed them from their bases >the year after I bought the boat. So it's been about 3 years since they were >loose. I'm surprised at how quickly the bolts became irremovable. Tapping and patience often works with frozen bolts. Soaking with your choice of a "rust-buster," then whacking repeatedly, coming back later and whacking a bit more. Only loosen the nut enough to protect the end threads from the hammer, and bang on that, not hard enough to deform the threads so the nut won't come off. But even banging in the direction of insertion provides corrosion freeing action. Might work for you, but use due caution not to overdo it. I've used the method with good success. Even works on recalcitrant pipe joints, preventing smaller rusted pipe diameters from twisting off in the joint. --Vic >Soaking with your >choice of a "rust-buster," then whacking repeatedly, coming back later >and whacking a bit more. Only loosen the nut enough to protect the >end threads from the hammer, and bang on that Been there. Done that, though I'm not so concerned about the end threads as the replacement bolts are readily available. In fact I hit the nut protecting the threads hard enough with the hammer to deform the threads even with the nut on. Dave brought forth on stone tablets: >>Soaking with your >>choice of a "rust-buster," then whacking repeatedly, coming back later [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > protecting the threads hard enough with the hammer to deform the threads > even with the nut on. A nut buster is sometimes the best and easiest solution, if you can get it on the nut, and if the nut is a "low value" one. It is frequently my FIRST choice. bob >A nut buster is sometimes the best and easiest solution, if you can get >it on the nut, and if the nut is a "low value" one. It is frequently my >FIRST choice. I'm afraid you misunderstand the issue. Removing the nut is not a problem. I removed it and put it back on the bolt to protect the threads. The problem is removing the stainless bolt, which is, not surprisingly, corroded to the aluminum stanchion. Dave brought forth on stone tablets: >>A nut buster is sometimes the best and easiest solution, if you can get >>it on the nut, and if the nut is a "low value" one. It is frequently my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is removing the stainless bolt, which is, not surprisingly, corroded to the > aluminum stanchion. ah. Sorry for missing that in this (long) thread. Indeed, stainless and aluminum are an evil combination. I have a mizzen mast with a seized aluminum sheave (it runs, or more correctly "ran" on a stainless axle) - I can commiserate. bob >>He's trying to free steel bolts from aluminum after 30 or 40 years. > >Not quite correct. The PO apparently removed the stanchions from their bases >each year when he covered the boat, and I also removed them from their bases >the year after I bought the boat. So it's been about 3 years since they were >loose. I'm surprised at how quickly the bolts became irremovable. 3 years or 30, we're still talking about steel screws in aluminum. If they didn't get coated with tef-gel or lanacote, I'm not surprised at all. I bet they will get coated when you put it back together! >> Hammer DRIVEN Impact driver > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > aluminum engine parts. This tool could get them out, even of the screw > heads were already partially rounded out from previous attempts. Absolutely correct! Still have mine I bought in the '70s to pull the screws out of my Kawasaki. Works like a champ. Keith Hughes >>>Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. Acetic acid >>>can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >dissolving barnacles. Just be very careful with it, and don't >accidentally inhale the fumes. Hydrochloric, sold as muratic for cleaning mortar from bricks, and for adjusting the acidity of swimming pools. Casady >>Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. >>Acetic acid [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > concentrations > of acetic be what I'm looking for? I would not slosh strong acid of any sort around anything on your boat as you never know where it will seep down and end up. I would first heat the bolt with one of those precision small burners you can attach to a can of gas. The bolt will expand but the aluminium will expand more and this should break the bond and make extraction easier. You can get really precise flames with the right sort of burner so it will concentrate the heat where you want it and not damage the surroundings.. >>Vinegar is greatly diluted acetic acid. Something around 5% acidity. Acetic acid >>can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >bolts securing the stanchions to the bases. Might the higher concentrations >of acetic be what I'm looking for? Photography supply outlets have the pure stuff. Casady Dave, Glacial Acetic Acid is almost pure acetic acid. Any chemical supply house will have it in small bottles. Be careful while handling it. Add acid to water rather than water to acid when diluting. Et c. Dave M. >>>Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, >>>and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >can also be 20%, 50%,100%, or anything in between, all which might surprise you >with their effects on metals including stainless. We are discussing silicone caulk. What is the concentration of the acid? Casady >>>>Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, >>>>and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Casady Don't know and don't care. Just pointing out that not all acetic acid is 5%. >>>>>Just the same, I know quite a few folks who thought all "Silicone" was the same, >>>>>and they bought their's at Home Depot to save a few bucks. OOPS! The home [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Don't know and don't care. Just pointing out that not all acetic acid >is 5%. Of course not. The caulk is undoubtedly less than one tenth that. Casady When I replaced the gaskets on my aluminum skylights, the company insisted that only Silaprene would do the job. I couldn't find it anywhere and bought a tube from them for 20 bucks. So far (two seasons), no sign of the gaskets coming loose. It's used a lot to attach window glazing into high rise curtain walls if I remember the refererences during my search correctly. SignatureRoger Long > When I replaced the gaskets on my aluminum skylights, the company insisted > that only Silaprene would do the job. I couldn't find it anywhere and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > Roger Long Thanks for that. I googled Silaprene and the prices are all over the place but you can get it for about $9 a tube plus shipping. AFIK, it seems to mostly be an automotive product. So, my worry is that it might not really be up to long term immersion... Good to hear that it works on your skylights. -- Tom. On Jul 8, 8:54 am, "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote: > Has anyone here been using it > on boats and if so how's it holding up? > > -- Tom. YES, A few years ago I needed to rebed my chain plates.They were the through the deck type. What caught my eye was a brief reference I read to an aritcle in some small boating magizine to Silaprene and its virtues. I researched Silaprene extensivily for a couple months talking to both their tech guys and Dow Corning, 3M, and a bunch of other tech guys. I posted my finding here. Just do a search and youll find all the Lap Strength.... Elongation..... etc specs. Bottom line is Silaprene is vastly superior to many adhesive typically used for chain plate to fiber glass bedding. Now comes the phiosophy arguments: 1) NEVER USE 5200 or others to seal becuase its so terrible to remove. Because it WILL fail. To that I say based on my application and product specs the reason why 5200 fails is because it is not designed for that application and is simply not tuff enough for the job. When you look up the numbers on the product youll find that Silaprene has a higher temp range than 5200. What the big deal with that? Temp on decks on a sunny day can EXCEED the temp range for 5200 and it DOES fail unlike Silaprene . SInce I have redesigned my trough deck chain plate and used Silaprene its been dry as a bone but mine is only about a 3 year study. However, if you actuyally do the reasearch and compare the SPECS of each of the more common sealants I bet you draw the sam conclussion as I. I may have plsted in RBbuilding and not RBC I cant remember. But its all there......... Bob PS have you noticed that several people posted here but none answered your question. They fixated on 5200 prob because that is all they know. This makes good sense with what I heard from the skylight people (Atkins Hoyle) since metal skylight frames can get pretty damn hot. Do you know a source for Silaprene? I was unable to find it anywhere other than wholesale quantities except from Atkins Hoyle. SignatureRoger Long ... > Do you know a source for Silaprene? I was unable to find it anywhere other > than wholesale quantities except from Atkins Hoyle. Don't know if these help but google shopping gives: http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:offi cial&hs=vPO&resnum=0&q=silaprene&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf or http://tinyurl.com/6xn5xw --Tom. On Jul 8, 8:54 am, "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Tom, You caught me in an usually benovolent and kind mood today........ Below is a post from 2005 that may be of help: Hello: Any thoughts on this. Chainplates are a source of leaks and equal source of debate on how to fix the leak. Some people say use polysulfide because if you use 3M5200 you'll be tearing your boat apart to rebed plates in a few years. Others say the reasons why plates leak is because polysulfide do not have required strength. The only way to solve plate leaks is to use 3M5200. Why? It has a much stronger bond. Others say that 3M5200 loses its bond eventually and it too will leak. Only this time the boat owner has a major problem removing the old adhesive to rebed. Here is the question....... Why would 3M5200 bond fail? I called 3M tech people and they sent Tech Data Sheet (effective: 12/1/2004). Interesting data. I also called Royal Adhesive and received data for Silaprene. This is what I read. Stainless to Stainless Overlap Sheer Strength 3M5200.........352 psi Silaprene......488 psi Interesting. What about temperature. I was painting my garage last summer. Ambient temp was 94 degrees F. I hung a thermometer on the side of the garage in direct sun. Temp of garage wall was 150 degrees F. OUCH! How hot do chainplates and decks get in many parts of the world during the hot season? 130-150-180F? Just a guess. How does temperature effect plate adhesive bond? I got more TDS stuff. 3M data: (Service temperature -40F to 190F) "Heat resistance-Due to the decreased value in bond strength at elevated temperature, we do not recommend use of this product above 190F." Silaprene data: (Service temperature -60F to 250F) " Heat resistance-No significant loss of bond strength until 300 degrees F." Elevated Temperature Shear Strength 3M5200......................(70F = 240psi) (150F = 176psi) (190F = 139psi)Teak test substrate. Silaprene.............(70F - 250F)No significant shear strength loss. READ THIS AGAIN ! Question. Could 5200 fail because deck and plate temperatures reduce its bond strength? Has anybody used Silaprene? Comparing data each company supplied says Silaprene has greater bond strength than 5200 on stainless steel and keeps its strength at temperatures when 5200 begins acting like butter (exaggeration). Ideas about the deck temperatures causing 5200 failure Should I use Silaprene to rebed my chainplates "forever?" Bob > On Jul 8, 8:54 am, "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > You caught me in an usually benovolent and kind mood today........ ... Thank you very much. Nice post. Kind of you to re-send it. -- Tom. >A buddy handed me a tube of this stuff and gave me a little sermon on >its virtues compared to 5200. Apparently it is used in the auto >industry and it sticks well to metal. Has anyone here been using it >on boats and if so how's it holding up? > >-- Tom. Not directly addressing your question, and a bit outdated concerning new products, but this might be useful when considering adhesives/sealants for various boat applications. http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/sealant.asp --Vic >...might be useful when considering > adhesives/sealants for various boat applications. > > http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/sealant.asp Nice link. Thanks. -- Tom. |
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