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Boat Forum / Electronics / June 2006Windlass Wiring Question
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG. I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what gauge wire would be needed for this installation? The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet. Don Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage drop of only 2%. With 50 amps on a 72' run #4 is the absolute minimum size you should use. Even then including the windlass leads you will be close to 10% voltage drop. Using #8 you would loose more than 20%. How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat?  SignatureGlenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com >I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 > foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Don Thanks for the reply Glenn. The batteries are on the port side down in the engine compartment. To come from there to where the breaker and control relay is located is 15 feet. From the breaker I have to go back down to the bottom of the boat and gradually up to the bow where the windlass is located. :-( I wonder if it is possible to run the chain from the bow through the cabin and mount the windlass at the battery? Just Kidding! :-) Don >Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the >windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat? > The batteries are on the port side down in the engine compartment. To > come from there to where the breaker and control relay is located is > 15 feet. From the breaker I have to go back down to the bottom of the > boat and gradually up to the bow where the windlass is located. :-( Have you thought about running just a relay control cable between the control panel and the windlass power cable near the battery? So you'd have the controls up and the actual relay would be down there in the path of the windlass power cable. The relay control cables would carry a current of under one amp, so they can be something like 18 AWG. But in this case you should have a circuit breaker "down there" for the windlass as it bypasses the circuit breaker you mentioned. Maybe this arrangement is not worth the trouble. Btw, there's a nice voltage drop calculator for figuring out what cable size to use at http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , below the cable size table. Tapio Tapio Sokura <oh2kku@iki.fi> wrote in news:nTqmg.7846$9l4.4042 @reader1.news.jippii.net: > Have you thought about running just a relay control cable between the > control panel and the windlass power cable near the battery? So you'd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > windlass as it bypasses the circuit breaker you mentioned. Maybe this > arrangement is not worth the trouble. I wholeheartedly agree with Tapio. You can buy 12V contactors, starter solenoids from any auto parts store. They are completely sealed and explosion proof as they are used in engine compartments of Ford Exploders. S/V Lionheart uses one, rated at 200A I think, for the master electronics power bus contactor. A continuous-duty contactor switches off a separate power bus that all our electronics is connected to, except the emergency secondary Icom M59 VHF, because my captain can't remember to shut everything down. Now he doesn't have to, just push in the push- pull switch next to the big red light staring him in the face. That works great! "Lionheart" had electric roller furling for its headsail when it was new, but the sea, of course, soon consumed the furler in the spray. Up in the portside cabinet in the V-berth were 3 contactors like this hooked to a 12V bus back to the main breaker panel. Her anchor winch only went one way. You released the clutch to pay out the all-chain rode. During taking it apart for maintenance, I noticed the local footswitch, SPST, had extra wires to the drive motor that went nowhere. Experimenting with them, I found the motor had forward and reverse windings! So, I wired the motor to the furler's existing contactors, and left the original one- way up switch on the winch's case hooked up, too. Now, you can pay out more rode or wind it in by moving the old furler's control switch on-off- on back in the center cockpit (half naked in the middle of the night when a storm unexpectedly rears its ugly head, for instance...(c;) No more clamoring around in the dark in your underwear cursing the clutch release toggle that's stuck because of the rode's pressure jerking on it in the waves. Just press the button...(c; Don't route the windlass' heavy cable to your control point. Those starter contactors are all sealed and will last your lifetime doing it remotely with a tiny switch switching the coils. >Now, you can pay out >more rode or wind it in by moving the old furler's control switch on-off- >on back in the center cockpit (half naked in the middle of the night when >a storm unexpectedly rears its ugly head, for instance. That's convenient for sure, but you should *really* use a hook line on the anchor chain to off load the strain on the windlass when anchored. The windlass bearings and seals are not designed to withstand cyclic and/or shock loads, and will fail prematurely if exposed to that kind of wear and tear. Don't ask me how I know. :-) > That's convenient for sure, but you should *really* use a hook line on > the anchor chain to off load the strain on the windlass when anchored. > The windlass bearings and seals are not designed to withstand cyclic > and/or shock loads, and will fail prematurely if exposed to that kind > of wear and tear. You're absolutely right, of course. It depends on the anchorage. If it's just tide flow up a creek, naw. This anchor windlass is a monster on the Amel. I think it could tow the boat out of the mud if there were something to hook the chain to.. > Don't ask me how I know. :-) Everyone here has experiences you'll never hear a word about....(c; > Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the > windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat? It may be useful to put some reference points into the analysis. With a 20% reduction in voltage, a DC motor would probably see a 20% reduction in torque, a 20% reduction in rotational speed, and a 44% reduction in power. If the expected load is still met with these reductions, there should be no problem. The motor will not be damaged by running at a 20% reduction in voltage, but the wires may not be too happy. It is also worth keeping in mind that 50 amperes is only going to be drawn when the motor is producing its maximum power output. This should be a relatively short-duration situation, particularly since must of us use swells to break an anchor loose rather than windlasses. Just stirring the coals. Chuck > I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 > foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Don We got round this by using the engine starter battery and positioning it so that it was as close to the windlass as possible (up forward) but still had enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery). >> I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 >> foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know > about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery). As a variation on Dennis' approach, some folks will place a relatively small, dedicated battery near the windlass. A battery that will supply 50 A for a minute or two need not be very large. Voltage drop is all but eliminated. This battery can be connected to your regular (starter or preferably, house) battery using wire as small as number 16, since it will generally carry only small currents needed to restore energy lost by use of the windlass. Routing is certainly easier. May not make sense in a particular installation, but can be less expensive in others. Good luck. Chuck Sorry, but this option is not possible with our configuration. Don >> I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 >> foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know >about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery). > The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet. Precisely why the wire is #4 for the long run. #10 is fine for very short distances, like inside the windlass. Shhh....don't tell anyone I told you this....#4 wire from the car stereo shop, or even #2, is LOTS cheaper and works just great! 400% profit doesn't make it work better....(c; Also try welding cables, which come in these smaller sizes #2 and #4. Tell your yachtie friends you only used the most expensive "marine grade" wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on the dock. I was considering this option as the price is a lot lower than marine grade and my son is in the car sudio business. Have you or anyone else actually used this wire in this application? Don >> The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on >the dock. > I was considering this option as the price is a lot lower than marine > grade and my son is in the car sudio business. Have you or anyone else [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on >> the dock. As conductors, marine grade and non-marine grade wires are generally indistinguishable. Some of the differences are temperature rating, flexibility (i.e., number of strands), type of insulation (e.g., imperviousness to chemicals such as gasoline and diesel fuels), and most importantly, tin plating. Marine wire is tin plated because it is widely thought that it is less corrosive in a marine environment than unplated copper wire. I have not yet encountered a judgment that unplated wire is better. You might want to do a search on Google Groups on the subject. The issue has been discussed before. Can't say anything about speaker cable, but I believe some automotive cables are tin plated. They still don't match marine wire specs but some boaters have been satisfied with them. Chuck > Have you or anyone else > actually used this wire in this application? Shhhh! Geez, don't tell 'em! I'll never hear the end of it! ......er, ah......well, yes....... Radio Shack has the nicest #8 "speaker wire", a parallel pair giant zipcord of clear plastic (so you can SEE if the damned conductors inside are turning GREEN from the water intrusion eating them or not) with finely stranded, very flexible conductors I've never been able to break by flexing. $1/foot out of the box at the Shack....One of the conductors has a red line down one of the conductors. That one's positive, here. Shhhh....after replacing the "marine grade" cables for the 2nd time going to the bilge pumps, I used this bigger wire because it was so cheap and I was in a hurry. Sealed the ends, including the ring terminals with a little blob of grease to keep the bilge humidity out. The conductors inside the clear plastic still look NEW!....(c; Shhh....my whole STEPVAN is rewired with car stereo speaker wire, even the diesel starter cable! That stiff battery cable crap breaks the #14 solid strands after a while...but not car stereo cable you can fold in half with no damage. Famous last words, "It'll crank a truck!"...(c; If it'll conduct 10KW of bass audio at 8 ohms...it'll run the windlass! >> Have you or anyone else >> actually used this wire in this application? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > If it'll conduct 10KW of bass audio at 8 ohms...it'll run the windlass! You can get genuine marine battery cable with UL, USCG, ABYC, etc. compliances for $1.48/foot here: http://stores.channeladvisor.com/genuinedealz/Items/Item.aspx?SKU=GIM-WUL4RD-/FT Genuinedealz.com - The Internet Bazaar GIM-WUL4RD-/FT: 4 AWG Marine Tinned Battery Cable Boat Wire RED /ft If you're going to go with #8 duplex, that's $1.45/foot. I've never dealt with them so caveat emptor. Chuck Thanks Chuck. This looks like a good deal to check out. Don >>> Have you or anyone else >>> actually used this wire in this application? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- > I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27 > foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Don Don, The #4 sounds like over kill, and you wire run is not back and forth, it's from point A to point B. My old boat was 27 feet, my power winch called for #6, much cheaper than #4. It worked perfect, that winch is being used occasionally, not constantly. If it were being used for extended periods of time the larger wire would be justified. > The #4 sounds like over kill, and you wire run is not back and forth, > it's from point A to point B. My old boat was 27 feet, my power winch > called for #6, much cheaper than #4. It worked perfect, that winch is > being used occasionally, not constantly. If it were being used for > extended periods of time the larger wire would be justified. I beg to differ. When calculating wire size from amperage it is ALWAYS the total run out and back to the source to get the total resistance. A 600 watt windlass is going to draw 50 amps at full rated load. #4 wire has a resistance of .000253 ohms/foot so 72' will have a resistance of about .01822 ohms. By Ohms law A*R=V so 50*.01822 = .93 volt. or about 8% loss. About the most you want to loose. #6 has a resistance of .000403ohms/foot or .029 ohms over 72' which will drop the voltage by about 1.5 volts. Net result is you don't get all the power that the winch needs and the motor will overheat and possibly burn out a winding. The only way to use smaller wire is to use less of it. Cut the run to 30' out and back and you can use #6. Best thing to do is mount the solenoid right by the windlass and run the wire directly from the battery to the solenoid. Then put the control switch where ever you want. The control lines don't carry much current. SignatureGlenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
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